Empowering Women in Finance: First Steps, Community & Values-Aligned Investing | Janine Firpo | 10

[00:00:00] Our money is really an extension of who we are. And if we try to live lives of integrity and we try to live lives of value, which I think most people do, we don't realize that our money is often at odds with that.

[00:00:27] Welcome to Coast FI Couple, a podcast where love meets financial independence. I'm Matt.

[00:00:31] And I'm Jana. Join us every other week as we dive into the world of Coast FI and share smart money tips for couples.

[00:00:37] We're going to be talking all about how to strengthen your bond and your relationship and bring you closer to financial independence.

[00:00:42] One episode at a time.

[00:00:44] Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Coast FI Couple. Today we are interviewing a special guest, Janine Firpo. She is co-founder of Invest for Better.

[00:00:52] That's correct. So Janine and I met at FinCon this past year in Atlanta, and she's just a phenomenal woman. And I've been real excited to have her on the show.

[00:01:00] She has quite an impressive CV. She is a awardee of Forbes 50 over 50. She was recognized for some of her remarkable contributions for advancing women's financial empowerment and creating positive social impact through this values aligned investing approach, which we'll talk about on the show today.

[00:01:21] She is an author of Activate Your Money, Invest to Grow Your Wealth and Build a Better World. And it's a phenomenal read. I think it really changes the way that we think about what we do with our money.

[00:01:34] So Janine, thanks for jumping on the show today. We're excited for a really great discussion.

[00:01:39] That was wonderful. And I just have to echo that I really enjoyed talking to you as well. It was really fun. And I'm interested in your business and just the unique things that you're doing as well.

[00:01:49] So I really appreciate you two having me on your show.

[00:01:53] You bet. Welcome.

[00:01:55] I've been particularly excited about this episode because, you know, when Matt and I first got married, we've always been really aligned on budgeting and trying to be on the same page and trying to have healthy communication around money.

[00:02:07] But there's a massive shift between, you know, doing your daily budget and being reactionary in the way that you're spending versus being proactive in the way that you are building and investing.

[00:02:19] And that wasn't something that really clicked in for me until, you know, five or six years into our marriage.

[00:02:27] And so I find myself really gravitating towards these women in finance who are not just doing it, but extending the hand behind themselves to help other women through the doorway.

[00:02:41] So I think one of my big questions is, is how do you, I guess, quantify that gap for women and help them learn to go from being in the backseat, whether it's in a partnership with their spouse or just in their life point blank to let's get in the driver's seat.

[00:02:59] Let's learn how to invest. Let's learn how to build.

[00:03:01] How do you quantify that gap?

[00:03:03] Well, I think it's really awareness.

[00:03:05] Awareness. The good news is that younger women, more of them are stepping up into investing.

[00:03:11] So that is a really good thing to see.

[00:03:13] So there is some generational issue here in terms of women where older women are farther behind and very young women are learning and coming into investing more quickly, which is fantastic.

[00:03:24] Awesome.

[00:03:25] But I think that you have to look at how we've been educated traditionally to understand this.

[00:03:30] I mean, it was only 50 years ago, for example, with an Equal Credit Act of 1974, October of 1974, that women even got the right to get a loan for anything, a business, a car, a home, anything without a man signing.

[00:03:47] So it hasn't been that long that women have actually had any element of financial responsibility and ability in this country.

[00:03:56] And we've been actively taught to save, which we do really, really well, but we haven't been taught to invest.

[00:04:04] So if you look at articles that are written for men and women, 65 plus of them tell women that are written for women tell us to save our money and not spend as much frivolous things.

[00:04:16] Whereas 70 plus articles for men are written on how to grow their wealth and invest.

[00:04:21] So the messaging that we've received is really different.

[00:04:24] And I think part of what we have to do is just change the messaging and get women to recognize that they are good at this.

[00:04:30] In fact, research shows that when we invest, women outperform men by at least 40 basis points a year.

[00:04:37] And that is consistently.

[00:04:38] So when we do invest, we outperform.

[00:04:40] And we just need to help each other realize, you know what?

[00:04:43] This isn't that hard.

[00:04:44] It's not brain science.

[00:04:45] We can't do this.

[00:04:46] We're actually really good at it.

[00:04:48] When we lead companies, we outperform.

[00:04:50] When we invest, we outperform.

[00:04:53] We can do this.

[00:04:55] I want to jump in there.

[00:04:56] So why do you think, I mean, is it carryover?

[00:04:59] Just like the media or newspapers are just typically tailoring this more aggressive approach towards men on the investing side.

[00:05:09] And they're maybe in women's magazines or websites.

[00:05:12] They're not doing that.

[00:05:13] Like, where is the gap today?

[00:05:15] Because, you know, in my experience, I've been very, very lucky in the sense that most women I meet are.

[00:05:22] I've had more bosses that are female in my life.

[00:05:24] And there are extraordinary women out there.

[00:05:26] And so it's interesting to me that there is still a gap at all.

[00:05:32] And there is still a gap.

[00:05:34] And what you'll notice in the workplace, actually, is that women do well until they reach a certain age.

[00:05:40] And then when they're about in their late 30s, early 40s, the jobs that go to women as opposed to men start to decline.

[00:05:48] So there is an apparent lack of gap earlier on in one's career, but that gap is still there later on.

[00:05:59] And there's still a significant pay gap as well for men and women.

[00:06:03] I mean, one of the challenges, too, that women really face is because we live longer than men.

[00:06:08] We take breaks to have children.

[00:06:10] We don't have as long as a work life as men do.

[00:06:15] We actually are going to need more money in retirement than men do.

[00:06:19] And we're going to need it to exist for a longer period of time for us.

[00:06:23] And a lot of women in this country are not prepared for that.

[00:06:27] But another thing that happens is because traditionally men have stepped up into the role of being the investors, women are women generally have the role of doing the budgeting and taking care of the household money and spending and all of that.

[00:06:42] But when it comes to investing, that's men.

[00:06:44] And so because they've done it and they've often done a pretty good job of it and they like it, women have allowed the spouses or partners in their lives to handle that or they've allowed financial advisors to handle that.

[00:06:58] And when the time comes that they need to pay, really pay attention, they don't know what they're doing.

[00:07:06] And that's really a problem.

[00:07:08] So I can't tell you how many women I know who have either been divorced or who have been widowed and all of a sudden they have to pay attention to financial matters that they knew nothing about.

[00:07:20] So it's really an issue.

[00:07:22] And it could be part of your experience is you are younger.

[00:07:26] So you are dealing with a younger group of people that are coming up now and things have changed.

[00:07:33] But the gap is still it's gotten smaller, but it is not non-existent.

[00:07:38] Right.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:39] So tell me a little bit about what inspired you to co-found Invest for Better.

[00:07:44] Obviously, this was probably something that was years in the making that, you know, was an accumulation of your expertise and being a woman in finance.

[00:07:53] But tell me a little bit more about that journey to to build this amazing organization.

[00:07:58] So it wasn't any of those.

[00:08:02] None of the above.

[00:08:03] So I never worked in finance.

[00:08:07] And this is not my field of expertise.

[00:08:10] In fact, I had a over 35 year career.

[00:08:13] The first 15 years or so were in the Silicon Valley in the high tech industry, which I started in 1981 before there were even personal computers, believe it or not.

[00:08:24] So my first in my first involvement with technology was mainframe computers and something called punch cards, which is probably way before you.

[00:08:33] I had a punch card.

[00:08:34] No, I'm there with it.

[00:08:35] OK, there you are.

[00:08:37] So that's how I started in tech.

[00:08:39] And I did that for about 15 years and I was having a great time, moved up to a vice president position in a company and always love to travel.

[00:08:50] So I ended up quitting a job in 1995, in February of 1995.

[00:08:56] And I was in something called the CD-ROM industry, multimedia industry.

[00:09:00] And I took a four and a half, five month solo backpacking trip to sub-Saharan Africa.

[00:09:05] And when I came back from that trip, something called the Internet had happened.

[00:09:09] The whole industry had literally flipped while I was traveling in Africa.

[00:09:14] It was astounding.

[00:09:16] But I had seen poverty in Africa like I'd never seen anywhere else.

[00:09:20] And while I was traveling, I made a decision that I was going to figure out a way to work on that issue.

[00:09:27] And so I started consulting in what was then the Internet industry.

[00:09:32] And about a year later, I figured out a way to craft a second career looking at the role that technology and business thinking could play in poverty reduction.

[00:09:41] And so I did that for over 20 years.

[00:09:44] Wow.

[00:09:44] And that was another extraordinary, amazing career.

[00:09:47] I traveled and lived all over the world doing that work.

[00:09:51] And because of that, I was sort of a social entrepreneur before that was really a term.

[00:09:56] And I spent a lot of time living in the Bay Area.

[00:09:59] And so I was part of the early conversations around what became known as values aligned investing or impact investing.

[00:10:06] And I realized that that kind of investing was really there for very high net wealth individuals or foundations or people with very deep pockets, institutional investors.

[00:10:18] And I was none of those things.

[00:10:20] But I had stepped out of the Internet industry at a time when or the tech industry at a time when friends thought I was crazy or walked away from a great salary, walked away from great opportunities to do work that mattered to me.

[00:10:34] And I realized my money was actually working against me.

[00:10:38] So I made a commitment over 15 years ago to invest all of my assets, starting with my cash, straight through everything I had.

[00:10:47] And I had real estate at that time.

[00:10:48] I didn't own private deals at that time.

[00:10:50] I do now.

[00:10:51] But I wanted everything invested in a way that aligned with my values.

[00:10:56] And since I was working beyond ridiculous hours, I had financial advisors who were supposed to help me.

[00:11:02] And they didn't get me where I wanted to be.

[00:11:05] And when I retired from my paid career in seven years ago, I took my money back and started working on this myself.

[00:11:16] And I realized, you know what?

[00:11:18] We are at a place where anyone can do this.

[00:11:20] You don't have to be accredited.

[00:11:22] Anyone can invest this way.

[00:11:24] And I realized 85% of women and 95% of millennials want to.

[00:11:29] People want to put their money to work in the things they care about.

[00:11:33] But no one was really helping us.

[00:11:35] And so against advice, I wrote a book.

[00:11:38] And I targeted it toward women because I knew that women were underserved in this space.

[00:11:44] And I had always wanted the book to be used by groups of women.

[00:11:47] I think women like to learn together.

[00:11:51] And I've been in three investment clubs in my life.

[00:11:54] And I've learned more that way about investing than almost anything else I've done.

[00:11:59] And so I wanted the book to be used that way.

[00:12:02] And as I was writing the book, I met a woman who was doing exactly that.

[00:12:05] She was putting women in investment clubs.

[00:12:08] And so she and I decided to join forces.

[00:12:11] And we started Invest for Better in September of 2021 as a nonprofit.

[00:12:17] Now, these investment clubs, is this something that you are regularly attending still or at the time?

[00:12:26] Or tell me a little bit about how those meetings came to fruition for you before you were leading them and then even after.

[00:12:33] So the very first investment club I was in, I was in in my 30s.

[00:12:38] And it was I was living in San Francisco.

[00:12:40] And it was called Fog Bank.

[00:12:41] And it was a group of women.

[00:12:42] We got together.

[00:12:44] We had at somebody's house.

[00:12:45] We'd have dinner.

[00:12:46] We'd have wine.

[00:12:47] We'd have fun.

[00:12:48] And then we'd sit down and we'd figure out how to invest in the stock market.

[00:12:52] And back at that time, in the early, late 80s, early 90s, I mean, the thing that you did was you invested in individual companies in the stock market.

[00:13:03] That's what everybody did.

[00:13:04] So I know that index funds are there now and mutual funds and ETFs.

[00:13:08] That stuff didn't really exist to the same degree.

[00:13:11] So that's what I did.

[00:13:12] So for three years, I learned how to invest in stocks.

[00:13:16] And then I felt that I had done that.

[00:13:20] I just felt ready to stop.

[00:13:22] So I left that club.

[00:13:24] And then later, when I was working, living in Seattle and working at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, I found a group of people there who were coming together as a group to learn how to invest their money in ways that aligned with their values.

[00:13:40] And do private investing.

[00:13:42] And I'd never done that before.

[00:13:44] And so I joined them.

[00:13:45] And I was with them the entire time that I lived in Seattle.

[00:13:49] And that was also fascinating.

[00:13:52] I learned so much.

[00:13:53] And a lot of those people had a lot more money than I did.

[00:13:56] And so I learned a lot about how people with different levels of wealth invest.

[00:14:01] And that was fascinating, too.

[00:14:03] And then as I was getting ready to write my book, I thought, you know what?

[00:14:07] I'm going to put together another club.

[00:14:08] And I'm going to start trialing concepts that I want to put in my book.

[00:14:14] And so I ran that club for about a year and a half.

[00:14:17] The more that Jan and I simplify and automate our finances, the happier we became.

[00:14:23] And this is the single greatest finance budgeting tool that's come out in recent times.

[00:14:29] It's called Cube Money.

[00:14:30] And it's changing the way couples implement financial health.

[00:14:35] We're investors in this company.

[00:14:37] We have exclusively been using Cube Money to do our own personal budgets since 2020.

[00:14:43] And it's so simple that even our kids are now using it.

[00:14:47] Cube has developed and patented a technology they call Default Zero.

[00:14:51] And it requires a category to be opened from your personal budget before you can spend with the card.

[00:14:59] And then once you spend, it deducts it all in real time.

[00:15:03] This single feature has made Cube the safest card in the world to use.

[00:15:08] If you drop it, it always has a zero balance on it unless you open the budgeting app.

[00:15:14] It's been extremely handy for us.

[00:15:16] And it saved us actually several instances of fraud.

[00:15:19] And we're never going to go back.

[00:15:21] Cube is perfect for families too because they've got shared spending categories that allow you to spend in real time from them.

[00:15:29] And everyone else in the family can see the updated balance.

[00:15:32] It's essentially making it 100% foolproof to always stick to our budget.

[00:15:37] And that has actually been the case.

[00:15:39] We have not overspent from our budget since we started Cube.

[00:15:43] And it's amazing.

[00:15:44] This is the tool that helped us get a handle on our family spending.

[00:15:48] And made our journey to Coastify so much easier.

[00:15:52] So if you're ready to take your budget to the next level where you truly can automate it, you truly set it and forget it, then you're in luck.

[00:16:00] Because Cube Money is offering an exclusive deal just for our listeners.

[00:16:04] Go to cubemoney.com.

[00:16:06] That's Q-U-B-E money.com.

[00:16:08] And at checkout, use the code COAST.

[00:16:11] You can try the premium or the family membership for free.

[00:16:15] And again, we highly recommend it.

[00:16:18] It's a personal endorsement.

[00:16:19] We know that if you use the program, it'll work for you.

[00:16:23] Enjoy.

[00:16:24] It's pretty interesting.

[00:16:26] You know, one thing that we kind of teach our audience is to take the thinking out of it.

[00:16:34] Because we're not going to outperform necessarily a huge hedge fund or, you know, individual stock picking can be pretty risky for somebody just entering that space.

[00:16:43] So we typically advocate for a large index fund spanning the entirety of the market.

[00:16:48] But there is a time, and we're at that time, where we want to invest in companies that we believe in.

[00:16:56] And we want to see those companies grow and really promote them because we believe in what they can do for the community.

[00:17:04] So I'm curious.

[00:17:07] I mean, you said it's taken a couple of years.

[00:17:09] Obviously, you've gone on a huge journey to find companies that you feel like you want to back.

[00:17:14] But are you putting a large percentage of your total asset allocation now into these individual companies?

[00:17:23] No.

[00:17:24] Okay.

[00:17:24] In fact, I got too busy.

[00:17:26] I think individual stock picking in the stock market is a lot of work.

[00:17:32] And I learned how to invest that way because that was what you did.

[00:17:35] There wasn't really an alternative.

[00:17:37] Fair.

[00:17:37] My stock portfolio is now almost exclusively in funds, primarily index funds.

[00:17:47] I put money into VTSAX, which I know is a favorite fund within the FHIR community because it is a broad market, low cost fund that has performed pretty well.

[00:18:01] And I started investing in that 20 plus years ago.

[00:18:05] So I have a lot of capital gains in that.

[00:18:08] I'd like to get rid of VTSAX, to be honest with you.

[00:18:12] But I really can't do it all at once because of the tax implications.

[00:18:17] So I do it in market downturns.

[00:18:19] I use losses to offset gains in that holding and I sell some off or sell it off slowly over time.

[00:18:28] But I'm mostly in the index funds.

[00:18:30] Where I do individual companies at this point is in the private markets.

[00:18:35] So I've done angel investing, which is private equity.

[00:18:41] But I'm really gravitating toward private debt and private revenue-based or alternative forms of investing because I've decided I don't really love the equity model, to be honest with you.

[00:18:54] And I really like the debt model more.

[00:18:57] And I think a lot of women are starting what equity VCs derisively call lifestyle businesses.

[00:19:07] And I like lifestyle businesses.

[00:19:09] I think they're great.

[00:19:10] And people make money at them and you can make money at them as an investor.

[00:19:14] And it's, you don't have to wait for an exit.

[00:19:18] You can actually get your money back a lot easier.

[00:19:23] So if you were, say, in front of an audience right now, maybe our audience, which I guess in a way you are, how do you go about explaining to, I guess, women in particular that this is not a scary concept to start?

[00:19:38] And that it really, we're trying to implore them to do so.

[00:19:43] Because to your point, I mean, you know, divorce rates are very high.

[00:19:48] It's easy to ignore this because if someone else wants to do it, it's a lot easier just to say, hey, if you want to do it, take it over.

[00:19:56] But, you know, we found that once we actually got on the same page, it became a lot more of us growing together.

[00:20:05] And it just felt right.

[00:20:06] It was fun.

[00:20:07] It was fun.

[00:20:08] I think there's this misconception with investing.

[00:20:14] And I might be speaking out of turn here, but I certainly felt this way when I was very young, that it felt like gambling.

[00:20:21] It felt like a gamble, you know?

[00:20:23] And I think individual, picking individual stocks can very much so feel like a gamble.

[00:20:26] The S&P 500, not so much.

[00:20:28] But I think that that is probably part of the gap that young people sometimes will have when they're deciding whether or not they want to invest in the market in any type of way.

[00:20:39] Have you found that at all, Janine?

[00:20:42] Yes.

[00:20:43] No, I agree.

[00:20:43] I think people are very – I think there are a couple things that stop people and stop women.

[00:20:49] One is lack of confidence.

[00:20:51] I don't know what to do.

[00:20:52] And so I'm immobilized and I don't do anything.

[00:20:56] It's a time issue, particularly for women.

[00:20:59] It's like, oh, my God, are you kidding me?

[00:21:00] I am overwhelmed.

[00:21:01] I can barely keep the pieces together as it is.

[00:21:05] And now you want me to take on another thing?

[00:21:08] So I think the time issue is a really big one as well.

[00:21:12] I think those are the two.

[00:21:13] And then there's just an inertia factor.

[00:21:15] It's like even if you have the desire, even if you can figure out how to make the time, it's like taking that step and getting started.

[00:21:22] So I think the thing to do is just start small.

[00:21:26] Set up – if you don't have one already, set up a brokerage account.

[00:21:29] Well, first of all, if you're working for a company and you have a 401K or you have a retirement account with them and they give you a match, for goodness sake, invest there.

[00:21:41] Get that free money.

[00:21:42] Please do that.

[00:21:46] But even if you're doing the retirement thing, you want to have money aside that you can use for other things because the money that you're putting into retirement, you can't really take out easily until you retire.

[00:21:59] So always have other money that you can use for the things you want.

[00:22:04] And so set up a brokerage account.

[00:22:06] It's not hard to do.

[00:22:07] And then even if all you do is put in $100 a month, just start.

[00:22:13] And then watch.

[00:22:15] I mean, one of the things that gives you confidence is experience.

[00:22:18] So make investments in a couple of things and watch.

[00:22:21] Look at it.

[00:22:22] You don't have to look at it every day.

[00:22:24] In fact, don't.

[00:22:25] I look at my investments once a quarter.

[00:22:28] That's what I do.

[00:22:28] Once a quarter, I go through my entire portfolio.

[00:22:31] I look at what all the returns are and I think about how I'm feeling about it.

[00:22:36] So I'm watching on a quarterly basis.

[00:22:38] It takes me – and I have a lot of holdings.

[00:22:41] It takes me maybe an hour to do that.

[00:22:44] It's not that big of an investment of time, right, once a quarter.

[00:22:47] So just get started.

[00:22:48] And get started as young as you can.

[00:22:51] So you guys probably know this, but there's that whole piece of math that was done that says if you start investing $100 a month at 20 and you invest for 10 years and stop,

[00:23:04] at 65 because of compound interest, you will have more assets than somebody who starts investing $100 a month at 30 and invests for 30 years.

[00:23:14] Yeah.

[00:23:14] So starting young is really important.

[00:23:18] Women who are retired who have been interviewed, a majority of them said, oh, my God, I wish I had started younger.

[00:23:26] So just start.

[00:23:29] Start small and watch.

[00:23:31] I mean this is what I did when I started thinking about investing my money with my values.

[00:23:36] I told you I own VTSAX.

[00:23:39] I wanted to invest in something that I thought was more aligned environmentally, socially, that wasn't invested in things that I didn't like, like tobacco and guns.

[00:23:50] I don't want to be in those things.

[00:23:52] Prisons, I don't want to be in those things.

[00:23:54] So I found another Vanguard investment that's in many ways similar to VTSAX.

[00:24:00] It also has low fees.

[00:24:04] It's called ESGV.

[00:24:05] It is not perfect.

[00:24:07] I use a brilliant tool on the free on the web.

[00:24:11] It's called As You Sow, Invest Your Values.

[00:24:14] And you can look that up, go to their website, and you can put in the stock ticker of any fund.

[00:24:20] And you can see how that fund shows up against fossil investment, prisons investment, military guns, how it shows up around gender equity, deforestation, a number of different factors.

[00:24:36] And VTSAX is terrible.

[00:24:38] It gets D's and F's almost across the board.

[00:24:43] ESGV gets B's and C's.

[00:24:45] It's not getting A's.

[00:24:47] It's getting B's and C's.

[00:24:49] That is way better than VTSAX, right?

[00:24:52] And what I have found with my portfolio, and if you look it up, traditionally, ESGV over the long term has also outperformed VTSAX financially.

[00:25:02] Now, that's interesting, right?

[00:25:03] Because I think the typical rebuttal to this is why would I want to sacrifice potential returns if they're on the table?

[00:25:12] And to your point, I think – and that's exactly what I think I'm going to get across is you don't have to take a less return if you still want to invest in something that you actually believe in or want to try.

[00:25:23] I mean, and that whole – this kind of investing has that still belief that you're going to have to give up financial returns hangs over this kind of investing for a number of reasons.

[00:25:36] Part of it is because historically how this investing came along, but also it is in certain people's interest to continue that mythology.

[00:25:44] True.

[00:25:44] And the truth is that you can do well financially and you can do well for society.

[00:25:51] You do not have to give up returns.

[00:25:54] If you're looking for the perfect solution, you will not find it.

[00:25:58] You are not going to find the investment that does everything you want and gets you the maximal financial return.

[00:26:05] That is not going to happen, at least not in today's market.

[00:26:08] But you can do a lot better than what you're currently doing.

[00:26:14] And the other thing to realize about this false narrative is that it usually only pertains to the stock market.

[00:26:22] So when I talk about investing and when I look at my portfolio, I'm working towards something called 100% portfolio alignment.

[00:26:31] That means every dollar I have, I want to invest consciously.

[00:26:35] Every dollar you have, even the money you have in the bank, somebody is using it to some end.

[00:26:43] And if you don't pay attention to the end that they're using it for, chances are they're using it in a way that goes against your core beliefs and your values.

[00:26:54] So our money is really an extension of who we are.

[00:26:58] And if we try to live lives of integrity and we try to live lives of value, which I think most people do, we don't realize that our money is often at odds with that.

[00:27:10] And our money is what our money drives the economy.

[00:27:14] Our money drives what gets done in the world.

[00:27:17] So for example, if you look at all the venture capital funding that was invested in this country last year or in the years before, only 2.2 or 3% of that money went to female CEOs.

[00:27:36] That's it.

[00:27:37] Wow.

[00:27:39] That's it.

[00:27:40] So what companies do you think are being built?

[00:27:44] What values do you think are being underwritten?

[00:27:48] Why is it that we're starting to see women starting companies that are building products for women that women have need, healthcare products or other kinds of products that women have needed for such a long time?

[00:28:01] We're just starting to see those companies come up.

[00:28:04] And part of it is because women are now stepping up as investors, as angel investors, as VC investors, and they're investing in women because nobody has done that before.

[00:28:16] And so finally, things are starting to shift around the kinds of products and services that are available in the marketplace because women are stepping in and helping to build those companies.

[00:28:27] It's the same thing in the stock market.

[00:28:29] The companies that we support are the companies that survive.

[00:28:33] The companies that we don't support don't survive.

[00:28:35] It's the same with banks, right?

[00:28:37] So when I look at all of this, I started with my cash and I started moving my cash out of the big banks that are supporting oil and gas and guns and all the things that I don't like.

[00:28:49] And I started moving them into local banks or climate-based banks or banks that are actually doing the kinds of things I want.

[00:28:57] And my money is insured, federally insured there, just like it is in the big banks.

[00:29:04] And some of these new banks that are coming up have good technology too.

[00:29:08] So there are alternatives there.

[00:29:11] I look at my fixed income and my bonds.

[00:29:13] It's like, where am I putting that money?

[00:29:15] Right?

[00:29:15] And again, when you're talking about this issue of financial return, there's more to where our money sits than in the stock market.

[00:29:25] And so the financial return conversation is less accurate in those other asset classes.

[00:29:33] It's not talked about in those other asset classes, and it's not really an issue there.

[00:29:38] It's talked about in the stock market, but I would say it's not an issue there either.

[00:29:43] There are investments you can make.

[00:29:44] You just have to do your homework.

[00:29:47] Interesting.

[00:29:48] Interesting.

[00:29:48] Yeah, I mean, if you take the potential growth factor off the table, right, where if you can show through data that, oh, hey, investing is something that I believe in, is providing me a like-to-like return or even more so,

[00:30:03] then really it just comes down to we need to be able to get this information out there a little bit more, right?

[00:30:08] Which I think is exactly one of the reasons why I was excited to talk with you, Gene, because I had no idea that this was as prominent out there.

[00:30:14] I mean, I've heard of these ESG funds back when they first started, and in the back of my mind, I'll be honest.

[00:30:20] I'll say, well, you know, I believe in a lot of these companies, and I hope that they do well, but I can't deny the returns I'm going to get through, you know, gas or guns or whatever, right?

[00:30:29] And but if that's off the table, then why isn't this more prominent?

[00:30:35] Is it because?

[00:30:36] Yeah.

[00:30:37] It actually is prominent.

[00:30:39] I mean, it's like there are trillions of dollars invested this way.

[00:30:44] I mean, one source that I looked at said that there was $30 trillion invested this way.

[00:30:49] So this kind of investing, you know, you said the last couple of years, ESG.

[00:30:54] ESG is a form of this kind of investing, but it is not the only form of this kind of investing.

[00:31:00] And this kind of investing has actually been around in this country for a very long time.

[00:31:05] So the earliest incidences of people making choices about how their money was invested based on their values goes back to the mid 1700s in this country, when the Quakers said our members will not invest in the slave trade.

[00:31:22] And we saw this kind of investing happening again in the 1960s during the divestment from apartheid.

[00:31:32] We saw it again in the 90s.

[00:31:34] Excuse me.

[00:31:35] The 60s was the Vietnam War.

[00:31:37] The 80s was the apartheid divestment.

[00:31:39] And there have been people building momentum in this kind of investing for over 40, 50 years.

[00:31:48] And a lot of those people have been women who got started.

[00:31:51] In fact, the first index fund that was a values aligned fund was developed by a woman, Amy Domini, the Domini Index Fund.

[00:31:59] One of the first financial advisory firms and investment firms that helped people invest this way was started by a woman in the 1980s.

[00:32:10] I believe she started it.

[00:32:11] And so this has actually been going on for a long time and it's been building momentum.

[00:32:15] It's become more widely known because the big investment banks have started getting involved in it, too, and the big holding companies.

[00:32:23] And part of the reason they are is because they realize that a lot of the things that are happening on the planet today around global climate change and around consumer awareness and around, you know, women in more executive roles, all of these things, they actually have a material impact on the financial efficacy of a company.

[00:32:47] And so they want to look at these risks because they actually do provide information and provide more data around the ultimate success of a company.

[00:32:59] When we don't look at these kinds of material risks, I think we're actually making poor decisions.

[00:33:05] And you mentioned oil and gas.

[00:33:07] If you look at their trajectory over the long term, their revenues have been declined.

[00:33:12] So it's, you know, things could change coming up next year with our new administration.

[00:33:17] And there are always ups and downs.

[00:33:21] But over the last period of time, the oil and gas prices have been declining on a trend.

[00:33:30] Interesting.

[00:33:31] Well, I mean, I really love the idea of this and I want to do some more research on our end because, you know, we are relatively young.

[00:33:38] And we want to be putting money to these type of programs that we think are worth investing in.

[00:33:45] We've got two kids ourselves, Janine, and, you know, one of our oldest is going to be coming into this new world.

[00:33:52] And, you know, she's facing learning all about this on her own.

[00:33:55] And we want to be able to provide resources to have her kind of come to the table by themselves and not just listen to the parents.

[00:34:05] What type of maybe guidance should I provide to them as they're growing to have them learn on their own?

[00:34:14] I actually don't think it's a bad thing for you as parents to be, you know, to influence them.

[00:34:21] I mean, I will tell you that one of the greatest gifts my mom gave me.

[00:34:26] So my mom was ahead of her time and she started investing in the stock market in the 1980s.

[00:34:34] She started buying and flipping real estate in the 1970s.

[00:34:40] So and when she was doing that, my sisters and I were her crew.

[00:34:45] So during the summers and during my junior high school and high school years, I would go and rip up carpets, repaint interiors and exteriors of houses, redo floors, fix things.

[00:34:57] I mean, that's what I did to help my mom with this real estate stuff.

[00:35:01] And she never really sat down and said to me, this is how the stock market works.

[00:35:06] But she would say, oh, today I'm investing in this thing and I'm so excited and and I think it's going to do really well.

[00:35:15] And then, you know, six months later, she was like, I was so smart with that investment.

[00:35:19] It is doing really well.

[00:35:20] So she normalized it.

[00:35:22] She talked about it.

[00:35:23] Very much.

[00:35:23] Yes.

[00:35:24] It was part of our lives.

[00:35:26] It was part of our lives.

[00:35:28] And the other thing.

[00:35:29] So I just learned by osmosis.

[00:35:32] It was just by being in that space.

[00:35:36] The other thing I want to share with you, because I just think this is so incredibly powerful.

[00:35:43] A lot of us don't talk about money in our homes.

[00:35:46] And as a result, when we go into situations where parents are getting old, they're perhaps getting ready to pass away.

[00:35:53] Siblings don't even know anything about the financial situation.

[00:35:59] And it leaves all kinds of trauma and drama and pain and heartache and family tension and all kinds of things in its way.

[00:36:09] That didn't happen with us.

[00:36:11] My mother told us exactly how much money she had all the time.

[00:36:16] We knew when her money was up.

[00:36:18] We knew when her money was down.

[00:36:20] We knew why it was up and down.

[00:36:22] She always told us.

[00:36:25] And she actually started divesting from her assets before she died.

[00:36:29] She opened accounts in my name.

[00:36:33] She opened accounts in my sister's name.

[00:36:35] She moved her assets into accounts in our names.

[00:36:38] We legally had the right to that money.

[00:36:41] But we knew that it was my mom's money.

[00:36:44] If she needed it, it was hers.

[00:36:46] It was not ours.

[00:36:47] It was not ours until she passed away.

[00:36:49] So there was such a level of trust among my mom and my sisters and I related to money that there was never any question at any time that any of us would use our mom's money.

[00:37:03] There was never a question at any time that any of us were getting more than the other one.

[00:37:08] There was never any lack of trust at any level in this whole process of shifting assets from one person to another.

[00:37:17] And I think that that kind of seamlessness is rarely heard of.

[00:37:22] And it was such a gift, I can't tell you.

[00:37:26] Yeah.

[00:37:26] It sounds like a really healthy way to teach children about money.

[00:37:30] Matt and I are very focused on teaching our children how to save their money, how to spend their money in a way that is thoughtful and conscientious.

[00:37:45] And we talk about money with the kids.

[00:37:48] We have an eight-year-old and a 16-year-old.

[00:37:51] And obviously the conversations are completely different because they're in two different stages of life.

[00:37:56] But with our 16-year-old, you know, soon to be an adult in just a couple of years, Matt and I have talked about this a lot.

[00:38:04] I really want that landing to feel soft for them.

[00:38:08] I don't want them to wake up on their 18th birthday and all of a sudden they have bills and they're not sure how to save or how to budget or what to do next.

[00:38:17] No, we want to slowly teach them along the way.

[00:38:21] So that way when they get to 18, they already kind of have some tools in their tool belt.

[00:38:25] And sort of same beyond, you know, when it comes to investing, we were just kind of talking about this last night, actually.

[00:38:31] The idea of maybe having quarterly or biannual sit-down conversations with our kids when they're old enough to be like,

[00:38:38] hey, let's look at your investments and look how much you made this year or look how much you made this quarter

[00:38:42] or look how much you invested or look how much we matched for you or something along those lines

[00:38:47] to really encourage them with metaphorical gold stars to continue to learn and invest.

[00:38:54] And we're here to guide you, but also do it on your own and bring some information to the table.

[00:38:59] And we want to help put the bumpers on it for you as well.

[00:39:02] But, you know, the power is yours.

[00:39:05] Do you let them pick some of the things that their money is invested in?

[00:39:09] They're not investing yet.

[00:39:11] Not yet.

[00:39:11] Yeah.

[00:39:11] But I think that's next in the conversation.

[00:39:13] Yeah.

[00:39:14] Let them give them a little bit of money.

[00:39:16] Okay.

[00:39:16] Give them a little bit and let them make some of their own decisions.

[00:39:20] And also, you know, I've also seen families do things around philanthropy too, where they,

[00:39:26] if they're doing charity, then they will, as a family, decide who they give money to.

[00:39:33] Or you could have them, you know, help you decide if you're trying to decide between two different

[00:39:39] investments.

[00:39:40] Ask their opinion.

[00:39:41] Yeah.

[00:39:42] Yeah.

[00:39:42] This is where we're stuck.

[00:39:43] What would you do?

[00:39:45] Ask their opinion.

[00:39:46] Get them involved in the actual process.

[00:39:48] Yes.

[00:39:48] Yes.

[00:39:49] The stuff about here's how much money you made, et cetera.

[00:39:53] I think that matters, but I think being involved in sort of the decision-making part

[00:39:58] of it and the thinking part of it is, can be really compelling too.

[00:40:01] Give them a seat at the table.

[00:40:03] Yeah.

[00:40:03] Give them a seat at the table.

[00:40:05] Exactly.

[00:40:06] I really loved what your, what your mother did for you guys, because I think part of the

[00:40:09] reason that we've kind of came to this conclusion of trying to guide them as much as we are

[00:40:15] is because, you know, my parents didn't talk about money at all.

[00:40:19] You know, it was kind of hush hush.

[00:40:20] And when there's something would go wrong and there were things that happened throughout

[00:40:24] the course of my memories of just, you know, a bad, you know, real estate investment or

[00:40:29] something like that that would occur.

[00:40:31] And it was just, it would just ramp up the stress in the home.

[00:40:34] Um, and, and I'm terrified of, of passing on those kinds of experiences to our kids.

[00:40:41] And so I do think that we probably need to take a more proactive approach like your mother

[00:40:45] did, uh, to, to make that soft landing happen.

[00:40:49] Cause I think this comes back to just the education.

[00:40:52] It just comes back to exposure.

[00:40:54] We just need, you know, having them make their own mistakes and, you know, kind of sharing

[00:40:59] our own.

[00:40:59] Right.

[00:40:59] Yeah.

[00:41:00] And the bad stuff happens.

[00:41:02] I mean, you talked about bad stuff with real estate, right?

[00:41:04] My mom had people who ditched her, who, who stopped paying rent.

[00:41:09] And then when she went after them, they would just leave in the middle of the night and bust

[00:41:15] holes through the walls and do damage to the property out of.

[00:41:19] So we heard all of that.

[00:41:20] We saw it.

[00:41:21] We knew about her trips to small claims court.

[00:41:24] We knew all that stuff that was going on.

[00:41:27] And so we knew about the highs and we knew about the lows.

[00:41:30] And when I started buying real estate myself, I don't flip houses, but I just don't have

[00:41:35] the time for that.

[00:41:36] But I do own real estate and I own rental property.

[00:41:40] I knock on wood.

[00:41:41] I've had very few mishaps.

[00:41:44] And I think that's in part because I watched all the mishaps that you learned from your experience

[00:41:49] with your mom.

[00:41:49] And so I didn't have to make those same mistakes myself.

[00:41:55] But, you know, this is why when what you're talking about, this process of learning, this

[00:42:01] is why we do what we do and invest for better.

[00:42:04] So what we do is we bring women together in small groups of eight to 20 women, and we put

[00:42:10] them into what we call circles.

[00:42:12] And we have a leader, someone, one or two women who step up to lead and they go through a facilitated

[00:42:19] set of conversations together.

[00:42:21] And we start with talking about money.

[00:42:23] It's like you can't be smart about all of this stuff until you start actually thinking

[00:42:29] about what are your stories around money?

[00:42:31] Yes.

[00:42:32] What are your beliefs?

[00:42:33] What do you, what scares you?

[00:42:37] Where are you stuck?

[00:42:38] Where are you doing well?

[00:42:40] What is your relationship with money?

[00:42:42] Yeah.

[00:42:43] We start with that.

[00:42:45] And then we go into conversations around, you know, where are you now and how are you

[00:42:51] invested?

[00:42:52] Do you know how you're invested?

[00:42:53] Do you know why you're invested the way you're invested?

[00:42:55] So many people, even women with significant wealth, even women who have worked in financial

[00:43:00] services, when it comes to their own portfolios, they don't know how they're invested.

[00:43:07] I've had friends say, well, or women that we work with say, well, I'm invested in fidelity.

[00:43:13] It's like, what does that mean?

[00:43:16] Yeah.

[00:43:16] What are you holding, you know?

[00:43:18] Yeah.

[00:43:18] So it's like, what, where are you now?

[00:43:21] And then once we talk about that, we get in, then we start talking about the conversations

[00:43:25] about, well, what are our values and how do we decide what those are and how do we prioritize

[00:43:31] them?

[00:43:31] Because you're not going to get everything.

[00:43:34] So which things, if you come into a situation where you have to make a choice between one

[00:43:38] thing and another, what are you going to choose?

[00:43:41] Do you choose gender equity?

[00:43:42] Do you choose the environment?

[00:43:45] Do you choose water?

[00:43:47] What, what is your choice?

[00:43:49] Um, and then we go asset class by, we talk about the asset classes and how across the

[00:43:54] asset classes you can make different choices and we provide tools and educate women how

[00:43:59] to do that.

[00:43:59] So that's what we do is we put women in groups and we teach them these things.

[00:44:03] And then we have advanced courses that go deeper for women who want that.

[00:44:08] I think this is exactly what, what I was hoping that you'd mentioned, because one of the issues

[00:44:13] we run into is no one else wants to talk about money.

[00:44:17] Yeah.

[00:44:17] It is still taboo.

[00:44:19] And until we bounce into some of these, you know, choose by groups or found some groups

[00:44:23] locally and we've built some friendships and stuff.

[00:44:26] So that's really great.

[00:44:26] But it's so important to continue expanding your network, especially, especially when you're

[00:44:32] learning, when you're still trying to learn and just get started.

[00:44:35] Money is, I think, innately scary for a lot of people because they don't know what they

[00:44:40] don't know.

[00:44:40] So, and there's, we talk about this on the show, Jenny, there's a lot of acronyms.

[00:44:44] There's a lot of potential pitfalls that could set you back years and you just want to

[00:44:51] be careful.

[00:44:51] So it comes to the education, but then that's tricky because there's a lot of misinformation

[00:44:55] out there too.

[00:44:57] And you mentioned being through three financial advisors yourself.

[00:45:00] I would love to not have to think about money.

[00:45:02] I think that that's part of the objective for us is to get to a point where we don't have

[00:45:06] to think about it.

[00:45:06] We can focus on other things, but you can't trust just anybody.

[00:45:10] You've got to really understand the game before you're willing to outsource some of it.

[00:45:15] Yeah.

[00:45:16] And I would say you're never going to not think about it.

[00:45:20] So even if you have a financial advisor, you better still be thinking about it.

[00:45:26] This is, this is a marathon.

[00:45:28] It's not a sprint.

[00:45:29] It's a marathon.

[00:45:30] And it is, it is a thing that you should do throughout your life.

[00:45:34] And as your wealth grows, you're not going to want to be invested the same way that you

[00:45:40] were when you had less assets.

[00:45:42] I mean, there was a time when the majority of what I had was in the stock market.

[00:45:47] It's not that way anymore.

[00:45:49] I think 30% of my total holdings are in the stock market.

[00:45:52] That's it.

[00:45:53] Interesting.

[00:45:53] Yeah.

[00:45:53] So I, I have diversified significantly as my wealth has grown and I've learned about

[00:46:01] different asset classes and each time it's been a bit of a learning journey.

[00:46:05] Now, personally, I like it.

[00:46:07] I find it interesting.

[00:46:09] But even so, I do not want to spend a significant amount of my time thinking about this.

[00:46:15] And where I do spend my time now is thinking about really cool stuff that I can do with

[00:46:22] my money.

[00:46:22] That's what I spend my time thinking about.

[00:46:25] So as an example, I have spent the last, right now I'm working on my estate.

[00:46:34] I'm working on, I'm redoing my will.

[00:46:37] I'm, I have a trust and I'm, I'm redoing all of that.

[00:46:40] And, you know, I don't have kids.

[00:46:42] And so I'm really thinking about what do I want to do with my assets?

[00:46:48] And I'm not going to leave them all to relatives.

[00:46:51] I'm not going to leave them all to relatives.

[00:46:53] I am going to leave money to them, but I'm also going to put money into something called

[00:46:59] a donor advised fund or DAF, which is a form.

[00:47:03] It's a, it's a nonprofit.

[00:47:05] So when you put your money there, it's like a, it's like the equivalent of a foundation

[00:47:10] in a way for people who can't afford foundation.

[00:47:13] Interesting.

[00:47:14] And you can put your money in a DAF and then that money can be invested or given away over

[00:47:19] time.

[00:47:20] And, um, I'm going to have it invested in highly high risk, but very impactful types of businesses

[00:47:32] and companies that, and I have, I've identified a woman.

[00:47:35] It's actually my financial advisor.

[00:47:38] She's going to manage it when I pass away and she will continue to use that money to take

[00:47:44] big, big bets, big risks.

[00:47:47] Um, which I don't do right now is I don't take a lot of really big bets right now.

[00:47:53] Rick's risky bets, but that money is basically grant capital.

[00:47:56] So, so what, so what if it gets all lost?

[00:47:59] It doesn't matter.

[00:48:00] I would have given it away anyway.

[00:48:02] So it's the perfect kind of capital to use very high risk, but potentially very high social

[00:48:10] and impact return types of investments.

[00:48:13] So that's what I'm going to do with it.

[00:48:15] That's really interesting.

[00:48:17] Yeah.

[00:48:17] Well, I'd love, um, to take a moment just to give our listeners a chance to, you know,

[00:48:22] learn how to find you and, and, um, join invest for better.

[00:48:27] I'd love to talk a little bit about that.

[00:48:29] How do we, how do we get connected?

[00:48:32] Great.

[00:48:33] Well, one thing to do is you can follow me on LinkedIn.

[00:48:36] That's where I am.

[00:48:38] I'm thinking about, um, spending time on Instagram next year, but invest for better

[00:48:43] is on Instagram and is also on LinkedIn and starting, um, as of January, 2025 membership

[00:48:52] at invest for better is free.

[00:48:54] So we'd love to have you join.

[00:48:57] This is a women's network.

[00:48:59] Um, and you can join at invest for better.

[00:49:03] And it's the whole word invest F O R better.org that slash membership.

[00:49:12] So feel free to join and become a member of invest for better and follow us and learn what

[00:49:17] we're doing and learn about our courses and how to take them.

[00:49:19] And everything we do is really low cost because our goal is to just start the word and get

[00:49:26] as many women involved as possible.

[00:49:28] And we love men too, and you are great supporters for us.

[00:49:32] And we like that, but our, we, we find that women feel more comfortable when they're in a

[00:49:38] room with themselves talking about money.

[00:49:40] Um, it just opens them up in a way that it doesn't happen when there's men in the room.

[00:49:46] So we try to have our conversations with women, um, together in that way, but other things

[00:49:52] that we have are open to everyone.

[00:49:54] Interesting.

[00:49:54] Well, we'll definitely put all that in the show notes.

[00:49:57] I do think that if you're just starting out for our listeners out there who want to

[00:50:00] build a community, this is a great organization.

[00:50:03] And, um, Janine will also include your information to contact you on LinkedIn.

[00:50:07] So if there's follow-ups that our audience would love to get in touch with you on, I hope

[00:50:10] that, uh, that that would be okay.

[00:50:12] And honestly, we've loved having you on the show.

[00:50:16] I can't believe it's already, you know, over 45 minutes of this, but I could talk to you

[00:50:20] for hours.

[00:50:20] I think that this is something that we need to just do a better job of getting out there.

[00:50:24] So thank you so much for the time today.

[00:50:26] I really, really appreciate it.

[00:50:27] I feel like I learned a lot and I'm looking at joining in January.

[00:50:31] So hopefully we can connect.

[00:50:34] Yeah.

[00:50:34] Love that.

[00:50:35] I love that.

[00:50:36] Wonderful.

[00:50:37] Thank you so much.

[00:50:38] Thank you so much, Janine.

[00:50:40] I appreciate your time today.