Let’s get serious - Panic Attacks, Burnout, and Building Balance Ep.06

[00:00:11] Welcome to Coast FI Couple, a podcast where love meets financial independence. I'm Matt.

[00:00:16] And I'm Yana. Join us every other week as we dive into the world of Coast FI and share smart money tips for couples.

[00:00:21] We're going to be talking all about how to strengthen your bond and your relationship and bringing closer to financial independence.

[00:00:26] One episode at a time.

[00:00:28] Alright.

[00:00:29] Welcome back.

[00:00:30] Episode 6.

[00:00:31] Episode 6, Coast FI Couple.

[00:00:33] Yep, in the studio.

[00:00:34] In the studio again. Really glad to be back. I always love coming to the studio.

[00:00:37] Yeah, I know you do.

[00:00:38] I do. I learned a little bit about it.

[00:00:40] Alright, so what are we coming today on episode 6?

[00:00:42] Oh, this one is a fun one.

[00:00:45] I think that we are going to be naming this episode something like Burnout and the Boring Middle.

[00:00:52] Burnout and the Boring Middle is what we coined it.

[00:00:54] But yes, this is going to be an important episode.

[00:00:57] Yes.

[00:00:58] It's one that we knew we were going to record back when we thought of starting the show.

[00:01:02] Because there's just not a lot, there's just not enough information out there.

[00:01:06] Um, at least from what I found about what happens to people who push too hard, too fast and don't stop and rest.

[00:01:17] And, um, yeah, we'll go into it today because this was a real eye-opening situation for me.

[00:01:24] Uh, you were right there along the journey.

[00:01:28] Absolutely.

[00:01:29] Yeah, I think that, you know, your burnout was really, um, one of the main reasons that we became more motivated to explore coast in a realistic way.

[00:01:41] Totally agree.

[00:01:43] I think before we get into this, I want to just put a quick disclaimer out there, right?

[00:01:48] Like we are in no way, shape or form medical advisors or have any experience in the medical field.

[00:01:54] Do not have my doctorate.

[00:01:55] Do not have a doctorate.

[00:01:56] Um, so we're, we're not healthcare providers.

[00:01:58] And for those of you listening who have similar experiences or maybe similar symptoms that we'll talk about on the show,

[00:02:04] just recommend you seek someone out who knows what the heck they're talking about.

[00:02:08] Um, I will say this episode is purely from our experience and our point of view.

[00:02:13] Uh, and with that, let's, let's talk about it.

[00:02:17] Yeah.

[00:02:17] You want to talk about it?

[00:02:19] So, uh, a few years ago, I think work just started getting a lot harder for you.

[00:02:28] We were talking about this last night.

[00:02:29] Uh, so I think some background, um, you know, I had, I was an, I was a young dad, right?

[00:02:36] So right from the get go, I was, uh, 21 when I found out I was going to be a dad and I jumped

[00:02:43] into the workforce as soon as I could to trying to start provide and trying to start to provide.

[00:02:49] And I think, um, I, I just pushed as much to the, you know, working as I could, if that makes sense.

[00:02:59] I mean, I'm actually feeling nervous talking about this.

[00:03:01] I know.

[00:03:01] I see you feeling it being difficult.

[00:03:04] So when we were talking about this, it was last night or a couple nights ago, I think that

[00:03:09] there was a little bit of a revelation that you had because I'd sort of pointed out that,

[00:03:15] you know, you went from being a 20 year old kid to a 21 year old dad, and you had just

[00:03:23] kind of started getting this financial bug.

[00:03:26] You were already listening to Dave Ramsey.

[00:03:28] You were already.

[00:03:29] That's true.

[00:03:29] I'm correct about that, right?

[00:03:30] Yeah, that's true.

[00:03:32] Yeah.

[00:03:32] And so your mind shift from building as an individual then immediately become became having

[00:03:39] to be a provider for a family.

[00:03:42] And I think that immediate shift at such a young age with the knowledge that you knew of

[00:03:51] financial independence and financial peace, and just, you know, having to get all of your

[00:03:56] ducks in a row financially, you didn't have time to mess around.

[00:04:00] You didn't have time to think short term.

[00:04:02] You didn't have time to, you had to think long term.

[00:04:07] And, and that go, go, go, have to get it done, have to provide, have to kind of chase the

[00:04:13] dollar, I think really fed your motivation in a, in a positive way because it helped you

[00:04:19] get to where you are.

[00:04:20] It helped eventually us get to where we are.

[00:04:25] But, and here's one of our great metaphors, which I think is one of your metaphors that

[00:04:28] you brought to the table a few months ago was you're running, running, running, running,

[00:04:33] running.

[00:04:34] And oftentimes like when a runner stops, they vomit.

[00:04:39] So they collapse and they vomit.

[00:04:41] It's a really good.

[00:04:41] And I think that you were just running.

[00:04:43] You were just getting as much done as you could as quickly as possible.

[00:04:47] And you weren't really connecting to your feelings of burnout at any point, really along the way.

[00:04:54] You were just, again, very head down.

[00:04:55] I think, I think you're absolutely right.

[00:04:58] When I, when I started out, when, after I graduated high school, I was, you know, teaching

[00:05:04] some lessons to kids around town.

[00:05:06] And I was listening to Dave Ramsey on those, on those commutes back in, you know, between

[00:05:10] swimming pools.

[00:05:12] And so I had known even back then how important this was and I needed to save as much as I could

[00:05:19] and, and make sure that we didn't go into debt.

[00:05:22] And, and so when I started to become a dad and those expenses started to creep up and the

[00:05:30] responsibilities were kind of more, I think I, I was already nervous that I was having to

[00:05:38] stop investing.

[00:05:40] I remember the day that I had to stop investing in my Roth IRA and I knew what that meant for,

[00:05:44] for, for our, you know, path.

[00:05:48] And that was really painful because I just wasn't making enough to be able to contribute to

[00:05:52] that and take care of, you know, the medical bills of the kiddo.

[00:05:55] And, and so that was, that was hard.

[00:05:57] It was a hard day.

[00:05:58] And I remember thinking this is going to set me back, you know, 20 years or something,

[00:06:01] but it was the stress of like, okay, find a job that makes money as fast as you can and

[00:06:08] head down and grind.

[00:06:10] Right.

[00:06:10] Yeah.

[00:06:10] So, so that was like the beginning.

[00:06:12] Right.

[00:06:13] And I was fine mostly for that.

[00:06:15] Like, I, I think we talked on earlier episodes, like I've never really found a job that,

[00:06:20] um, it filled my bucket with, with more energy.

[00:06:24] Right.

[00:06:24] Like I get excited about projects and I, and I do love parts of my career and, and I can

[00:06:30] get excited about that stuff because medicine is really fascinating, but it's, it's really

[00:06:35] stressful too.

[00:06:35] And so during the climb, um, I think I was about eight years in when I experienced my

[00:06:41] first panic attack, which was, uh, I had no idea what to make of it.

[00:06:48] Yeah.

[00:06:48] Yeah.

[00:06:48] It was, it was, it was hard.

[00:06:51] It was a scary time.

[00:06:52] I think the panic attack, the first panic attack that you had at work, it was at work.

[00:06:58] It was at work.

[00:06:59] Was it in the bathroom at work?

[00:07:00] No, it was, it was after 10 o'clock at night, uh, at the office.

[00:07:04] No one else was around.

[00:07:04] Okay.

[00:07:05] I had a couple of big presentations and projects that I was trying to wrap up and I remember

[00:07:10] sitting at the desk and the lights hallway were going off and I'm thinking, I'm not going

[00:07:15] to finish this in time.

[00:07:17] And then I started to like, I was hyperventilating a little bit.

[00:07:21] I got lightheaded.

[00:07:22] I had to sit down on the ground at the office and just kind of like try and collect my thoughts

[00:07:27] and realize that I was not feeling safe enough to drive home.

[00:07:31] Um, and then that lasted another half hour or so before I felt like I could even get in

[00:07:37] the car.

[00:07:38] Was that, um, while you were also in school, you were in school at that time too.

[00:07:44] I was in school.

[00:07:44] Matt had gone back to get his master's around this time because we were trying to push ourselves

[00:07:51] to this next level in our careers.

[00:07:53] You know, we were both in school, but you were getting your master's.

[00:07:55] It was a crazy time.

[00:07:58] And we had our second child too.

[00:08:00] So we had a baby house.

[00:08:01] And we had a toddler.

[00:08:03] Toddler.

[00:08:04] Ish.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:05] Young kid.

[00:08:06] Yeah.

[00:08:07] And that, I remember that first panic attack and I thought it was just the company you

[00:08:12] were working for.

[00:08:13] I thought, okay, that's it.

[00:08:16] We got to make a change.

[00:08:17] And we had already had a plan to make a shift once your master's was done.

[00:08:22] Right.

[00:08:22] I think that, um, your tuition was partly being reimbursed by that company.

[00:08:28] So we sort of had a timeline there for how much longer you had to be there.

[00:08:31] So we were already sort of counting down.

[00:08:33] And even after that first panic attack, there was still some grind that we went through.

[00:08:38] I think you were still there for what?

[00:08:40] Another year.

[00:08:41] I didn't.

[00:08:41] I remember the time I went to grad school, I didn't think I was going to leave the company

[00:08:44] right away.

[00:08:45] I, I, I pictured it as like a way to get past the glass ceiling that was up there.

[00:08:50] Right.

[00:08:50] So, um, the job kind of required an MBA to be able to get to the next level, which is,

[00:08:56] you know, again, we talked about this before.

[00:08:58] You wanted that next pay structure.

[00:09:00] Yeah.

[00:09:00] Yeah.

[00:09:01] Which also didn't quite pan out.

[00:09:03] I think they little balled you.

[00:09:04] We'll not get into that.

[00:09:06] But, but which was, you know, it all kind of, um, a lot of this started to accumulate

[00:09:11] right around the pandemic.

[00:09:14] You had graduated with your master's, you know, I think the rug was pulled out from you a

[00:09:19] little bit at your previous position at that previous company.

[00:09:23] And so you started shopping around and you were able to make a change and you went to

[00:09:27] a different company, really great company.

[00:09:29] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Um, and I, I think it was a positive change for, for both of us.

[00:09:34] You were able to work from home.

[00:09:35] You had less travel.

[00:09:37] Um, and that was, it felt like, okay, maybe this was just that company and it's not the

[00:09:45] job.

[00:09:46] And for a little while it was like, okay, maybe this is going to, this is, this is the

[00:09:51] change that we needed to make.

[00:09:53] But you want to talk about that?

[00:09:55] Yeah.

[00:09:56] I had hoped it was the job.

[00:09:57] Yeah.

[00:09:58] Right.

[00:09:58] I think, I think what we found out later on is, is it was, this is exactly what burnout

[00:10:04] is, is you, you push yourself so hard that the, at some point I remember how difficult

[00:10:11] it was not only to get out of bed, but to, to finish an email was very difficult for me.

[00:10:18] And, and, and that was such a horrible sensation because, um, I was used to the grind.

[00:10:27] I was used to pushing hard.

[00:10:28] I was almost feeling pride as a guy to be the one that was the last in the first in office,

[00:10:36] last one out.

[00:10:37] Uh, I worked as hard as I possibly could.

[00:10:40] And then I hit a wall and that wall was something I couldn't reason around.

[00:10:46] I, I knew what I had to do.

[00:10:49] I had the training to do it.

[00:10:50] I felt like there's no reason for me not to be successful here.

[00:10:54] You were working for a great company.

[00:10:55] I was working for a great company.

[00:10:57] I liked what I was doing to some extent.

[00:11:00] Um, but it, it, it progressively got worse and worse and I couldn't figure out what the

[00:11:07] hell was happening.

[00:11:08] Yeah.

[00:11:08] And it was scary, right?

[00:11:10] Because I couldn't address it.

[00:11:14] And, and so I was starting to do research, you know, starting to figure out, okay, you

[00:11:19] know, maybe I need medication, right?

[00:11:21] Like what is going on with my brain that I can't.

[00:11:23] Continue to push.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:25] And we tried that route, you know, Matt saw a couple of different doctors and we tried

[00:11:32] a few different medications to try and help you with your stress and your anxiety.

[00:11:38] But again, it wasn't, it was like putting a bandaid on a broken leg in a way.

[00:11:43] Yeah.

[00:11:44] You know, eventually it just, the truth was he just hit a wall.

[00:11:49] He had worked so hard for such a long time, head down that I think you just needed to make

[00:11:56] a change.

[00:11:56] And you called me one time on a business trip with the new company.

[00:11:59] That was a good company.

[00:12:01] And he was having another panic attack at this point.

[00:12:05] It was probably like your third or fourth panic attack.

[00:12:06] So it wasn't, it, I've had three panic attacks if I count correctly.

[00:12:11] Yeah.

[00:12:12] I think you've probably had more than that, that you're not counting, but that's okay.

[00:12:16] We don't have to get into that.

[00:12:17] Yeah.

[00:12:18] Um, it's definitely been more than three, but, but that particular time he called me and

[00:12:23] he was, he was having a panic attack and I had to calm him down on the phone and it was really

[00:12:32] stressful.

[00:12:32] And we had already had a plan for you to step away from this job and for us to enact our

[00:12:38] coast plan.

[00:12:39] And it was still at that time, I think eight to 10 months out or something.

[00:12:45] And after that phone call, I was, I knew we had to immediately put it into action.

[00:12:51] And I remember, I remember the time that this happened.

[00:12:55] I, and I remember the feeling saying, okay, uh, cause it took all, all night for this to

[00:13:00] pass.

[00:13:01] And, you know, again, this is a, it's an episode that's where I'm trying to be as vulnerable

[00:13:05] here as I can.

[00:13:06] Cause, um, it was, it was definitely a lesson learned.

[00:13:11] And, um, through that night, uh, when the panic attack finally passed, um, I knew the next

[00:13:19] morning that, yeah, it's time to make a change.

[00:13:22] And that was both a sad moment as, as well as it was a, a reprieve, right?

[00:13:31] Like I could, I could finally say, okay, I gave it my all hit my wall.

[00:13:35] There's nothing more that I can do here.

[00:13:37] Um, I'm not going to continue climbing because obviously something is going on where this is

[00:13:43] not healthy for me.

[00:13:44] Yeah.

[00:13:45] And I remember reading a lot of statistics and recognizing that, you know, panic attacks

[00:13:51] are precursors to heart attacks in some fashion.

[00:13:53] And why the heck would we push harder?

[00:13:58] We didn't need it.

[00:13:59] And it took a lot of conversations with Matt for me to get through to him to, to, for him

[00:14:05] to see that we didn't need him to put his body, your body through this anymore.

[00:14:11] You know, we had saved a comfortable nest egg.

[00:14:14] We had already reached coast fire at this point in time.

[00:14:17] We had already reached it.

[00:14:18] We just hadn't made any changes with our work.

[00:14:22] We, we reached it, but it was very, very light.

[00:14:26] And I still felt like on paper, it would make a lot more sense to keep going.

[00:14:30] And I had this hard time balancing.

[00:14:33] Do I stay for that next bonus?

[00:14:34] Do I stay for that?

[00:14:36] Well, like the fire community calls us the one more year syndrome where, you know, you,

[00:14:41] you've got things moving.

[00:14:42] They're finally moving along and you see progress in your investments and you might even like

[00:14:47] your job and, and want to stay, but you forget what you're giving up, which is the time to

[00:14:54] do other things that might be more valuable and precious to you and your health and time

[00:14:58] with your family.

[00:15:00] Yeah.

[00:15:00] Yeah.

[00:15:01] So we moved the coast by, well, not coast by date, but cause we were already coast by,

[00:15:07] but we moved your date to leave your job up by, I think six months or something.

[00:15:14] Yeah.

[00:15:14] We, we, I actually wanted to stay another year, I think at the time, but I mean, that would

[00:15:20] have been nice in a way, but it just, at that point, it wasn't worth it anymore.

[00:15:23] It wasn't worth it.

[00:15:24] And, and you were, you were really a big advocate for me in a time that was very difficult.

[00:15:32] You know, like I, I didn't want to leave.

[00:15:35] No, I didn't want to leave.

[00:15:36] You wanted to leave, but you, I think that you felt like you couldn't put down the responsibility

[00:15:42] of having the big shovel job.

[00:15:44] I think that you had embedded so much of being the provider into who you are as a person and

[00:15:50] as a man and your sense of self-worth into that.

[00:15:54] That's sorry.

[00:15:56] At such an early age, you had embedded your sense of self-worth into being a provider that

[00:16:06] I think you, you couldn't put down the job, the big shovel job.

[00:16:13] I think doing that just felt like the antithesis of you and who you are and what you're here

[00:16:20] to do and you're here to provide and take care of your family and get it done anyway

[00:16:24] and, and bite down on it and just grit through it.

[00:16:29] And yeah.

[00:16:30] Plus we had spent all that time and effort, you know, finishing grad school and, and finally

[00:16:36] getting to a position where we were, you know, really happy with our savings rate.

[00:16:41] So it just felt like we finally made it, but, but, you know, we're sacrificing all that effort

[00:16:48] that we put in to get here.

[00:16:52] So it was a hard decision, but it was the right.

[00:16:55] It was, it was absolutely the right decision.

[00:16:58] Totally the right decision.

[00:16:58] I'm glad we did it when we did.

[00:17:01] I'm glad we didn't wait.

[00:17:05] And one thing I was going to ask you when I was thinking about this episode is if you

[00:17:13] knew then what you know now, or if you were able to have a little bit of a peephole into

[00:17:25] the deconstruction that you've been through, right?

[00:17:28] Do you think that you would have left sooner?

[00:17:31] Do you think you would have done something differently?

[00:17:33] Do you think that you would have taken more breaks along the way?

[00:17:36] Cause you were also not really wanting to take PTO.

[00:17:39] No, I, I, yeah.

[00:17:41] I always had PTO at the end of the year thinking I was going to need it throughout the year,

[00:17:44] but.

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[00:19:51] Enjoy.

[00:19:53] Yeah.

[00:19:53] If I, you know, if I'd known now what I are known, what I know now, then I would have

[00:20:00] made different changes for sure.

[00:20:02] I would have left my first company faster.

[00:20:04] I would have taken my foot off the gas a little bit earlier.

[00:20:09] Um, you know, I wouldn't have tried to climb the ladder as hard.

[00:20:12] Right.

[00:20:12] So there definitely would have been smart changes.

[00:20:15] Cause I do think that, um, not that something in me is broken.

[00:20:19] Um, but I do think that there even now is a, a path to heal that I'm still working through.

[00:20:26] Yeah.

[00:20:27] The deconstruction that you've, I've watched you go through since leaving this job has

[00:20:31] been really amazing.

[00:20:33] Yeah.

[00:20:34] It's, it's not been the, and this is something I want people to understand when, when you

[00:20:39] hit this wall, um, as hard as I did, it's not like you leave your job in the next day.

[00:20:44] You're going to be fine.

[00:20:45] No, I had months of, um, anxiety after leaving my work, uh, which was just not what I expected.

[00:20:53] We had some guilt and some shame that you were kind of working through too, which was somewhat

[00:20:58] unexpected.

[00:20:59] I think we both thought that you would leave your job and then it was like, poof, all better.

[00:21:03] That's, you know, in a way that was the main conduit of stress.

[00:21:08] Sure.

[00:21:08] It was compounding everything, but there was, I think your body was just so used to being

[00:21:15] in this state of anxiety that you needed the time away to not be constantly triggered by that

[00:21:23] anxiety.

[00:21:23] I mean, there was this one point that was, you know, two months after you left your job

[00:21:29] that you were sitting down to write an email for something and you started having the feelings

[00:21:36] and you were explaining, you were like, Oh, I just had to take a break.

[00:21:39] I'm having these, you know, like my, my vision's feeling blurry.

[00:21:43] I'm getting kind of sweaty.

[00:21:44] My heart's pounding.

[00:21:45] And I was like, that is a panic attack.

[00:21:47] And you're like, no, it's not like, yes, that is absolutely a panic attack.

[00:21:51] And we looked it up and we looked at all the signs together.

[00:21:54] And I think you realize that you were, it, it had become like a trigger for you sitting

[00:22:01] in the desk, your, your old work desk and sitting down to do the things.

[00:22:06] And so we had to get a little creative.

[00:22:08] We kind of redid our desk situation, which I think helped taking the time away really

[00:22:14] helped.

[00:22:14] And you know, just really talking through the different projects that you've been working

[00:22:21] on and, and things on the side.

[00:22:22] Like we're, we're focusing more on things that we enjoy doing and building.

[00:22:28] Definitely.

[00:22:29] And so I think that that's been a good change.

[00:22:32] Oh, it absolutely has.

[00:22:33] And you helped me realize that what we're doing now is we're doing because we want to

[00:22:40] do it.

[00:22:40] Yeah.

[00:22:41] Right.

[00:22:42] And, and that's, you know, you, you talked about the exact scenario that I think we want

[00:22:46] to explore a little further because that triggering of sitting down at the desk to, to get a task

[00:22:53] done.

[00:22:53] Um, yeah, I still, I still feel some of it, which is weird, right?

[00:22:57] Like I've, I've definitely put, um, you know, one step forward since I've left and I feel

[00:23:04] a lot better.

[00:23:06] And the idea of, of being productive is exciting for me.

[00:23:12] Like I am all about trying to be, um, better and, and iterative improvements over time and

[00:23:20] efficient.

[00:23:21] And so the idea that, um, a simple task could kind of slow me down was frustrating.

[00:23:29] It's still frustrating.

[00:23:30] But, um, once we reformed that, this, and I almost want to call you like my personal

[00:23:35] little therapist because, um, you know, you helped me realize this.

[00:23:38] We, we went on a walk around the neighborhood and it's like, Hey, listen, if money was no

[00:23:42] object, what would you want to spend your time doing?

[00:23:48] And, and, you know, damn, if you weren't correct, like I want to spend my time doing this.

[00:23:53] I want to spend my time talking to other people about the experience that I had.

[00:23:59] Cause it's, it's something that I wish I had heard of earlier.

[00:24:01] I want to spend my time helping people, you know, manage their budgets and, and get out

[00:24:07] of the rat race.

[00:24:08] And I want to spend more time with my kids and what better way of teaching our kids how

[00:24:14] to get out of the rat race than to provide content like this and tools and tools that

[00:24:19] we've created to help everyone do that.

[00:24:23] So, so this is, this has definitely been a, um, a reframing, right?

[00:24:29] Like, yeah, there are, there are tasks and things that we still do.

[00:24:32] And that's never going to go away where it feels like I have to do something that I might

[00:24:35] not want to do right away.

[00:24:37] But if I take a moment to step back and realize that I'm doing this because I want to do this.

[00:24:43] I want to do this.

[00:24:45] That has helped immensely.

[00:24:47] Yeah.

[00:24:48] Yeah.

[00:24:49] All right.

[00:24:50] So let me talk a little bit about, um, some system statistics about burnout, because for

[00:24:56] those of, you know, who are listening or watching, if you've not experienced the signs, um, yourself,

[00:25:02] or maybe, you know, someone who is experiencing the signs, I think it's, it's just helpful to

[00:25:06] know how prevalent this is.

[00:25:07] Um, and I think that with the pandemic, not to call that an excuse, but it definitely has

[00:25:13] opened, um, the door to this being more socially acceptable talking about, uh, because even

[00:25:19] though a lot of us had the chance to work from home and that was a great benefit for

[00:25:25] us, what that also opens the door to is, uh, a lot of people have the inability to turn

[00:25:30] off the switch that is working because when you're home work is right there.

[00:25:36] And if you're getting the email late at night, uh, it's easy to hop on and take care of it.

[00:25:40] And so it's never really, you're never really able to step away unless you put in clear boundaries,

[00:25:45] which we eventually did.

[00:25:46] Yes.

[00:25:47] But, um, like me, it took a while to figure that out.

[00:25:51] Quick side note before you jump into that.

[00:25:53] Uh, we were recently visiting with some friends over the weekend and a good friend of ours,

[00:25:59] uh, she works in HR and she was explaining how she has two cell phones and we're like,

[00:26:06] you have two cell phones, one for work and one for personal.

[00:26:08] Like that just seems like a lot.

[00:26:10] And she was talking about how she does it very purposefully because it gives her an

[00:26:13] opportunity to really have the break from work where, you know, instead of picking up one

[00:26:20] phone in the morning and the first thing you're doing is checking your email.

[00:26:23] The last thing you're doing is checking your email before you go to bed.

[00:26:25] Like she leaves her work phone on her desk and she only uses her personal phone on her

[00:26:30] personal time.

[00:26:31] And it really creates that break and it gives her that healthy boundary between work and

[00:26:35] personal life.

[00:26:36] And I've been thinking a lot about that.

[00:26:39] You know, I, I thought it was genius.

[00:26:41] I can't believe I hadn't thought of it before, but that's one way that you can kind of help

[00:26:44] create that boundary.

[00:26:46] So yeah.

[00:26:47] If you remember, I actually had two cell phones for a while.

[00:26:49] Yeah.

[00:26:49] You didn't use it like that.

[00:26:50] You kept them both on you all the time.

[00:26:52] I did.

[00:26:52] Cause I was trying to, to be the yes man.

[00:26:55] You were grinding.

[00:26:56] I was grinding.

[00:26:57] And anytime I, yeah, you're right.

[00:26:58] I always answer the calls no matter what.

[00:26:59] Yeah.

[00:26:59] So good point.

[00:27:00] If there's a clear way for you to leave the phone in the room and I'm trying to do this more

[00:27:04] often with my personal phone too, like when I'm home and when I'm connecting with you

[00:27:07] or the kids, I don't want my phone on me because it's just too much of an incentive.

[00:27:11] I get distracted easily.

[00:27:12] So like, I want to remove those obstacles, right?

[00:27:17] Same thing with like, you know, snacks, right?

[00:27:20] They say if you have a problem snacking to leave the snacks, you know, high up in the

[00:27:24] cupboard far away.

[00:27:25] So it's almost difficult for you to get to them because naturally humans are lazy and

[00:27:29] we'll just go to what's easiest, which would be not the snacks that I desperately want in

[00:27:34] the cup corner.

[00:27:35] I do have to hide the snacks from them.

[00:27:36] I'm like a rat with cheese and snacks.

[00:27:38] All right.

[00:27:38] So let me, let me get back to some of these statistics because I think they're helpful.

[00:27:42] Um, so panic attacks specifically up to 11% of people in the U S experienced panic attacks,

[00:27:49] panic attacks each year, um, which sounds small, but 11% of the whole U S is a significant

[00:27:55] amount.

[00:27:56] That's a lot.

[00:27:56] So just worth noting, um, when it comes to burnout, um, 44% of U S employees feel burned

[00:28:03] out at work and 45% feel emotionally drained and 51% feel used up at the end of the day.

[00:28:11] Those are all very similar in my book, but the fact that roughly half of people in the U S

[00:28:17] feel burned out at the end of the work day or the week, you can only do that for so long

[00:28:24] before something happens, which a perfect, uh, case study on like something happened where

[00:28:30] I couldn't do it anymore.

[00:28:31] And it's, it's smart to be able to take a step back.

[00:28:36] That's, that's why people take sabbaticals is why people have sick leave, take the sick

[00:28:41] leave.

[00:28:42] Um, sometimes just a week off or two weeks off, if you can manage it is enough to reset.

[00:28:47] And it was for me for years, you know, the family vacation was enough, but at some point

[00:28:52] if you ignore the signs and you keep pushing hard, something's going to snap.

[00:28:57] So you don't want to get to that point.

[00:28:59] Um, and one thing too, that I want to sort of connect back to this point about financial

[00:29:06] independence and coast fire, we were able to have Matt walk away from his job six months

[00:29:14] sooner than we had planned to because we had built a comfortable emergency fund.

[00:29:22] We had a comfortable nest egg.

[00:29:24] We had the peace of mind to pull that plug probably even six months sooner than we actually did

[00:29:32] it.

[00:29:32] If we really needed to, which, which knowing that was such a huge relief.

[00:29:38] It's still, we were still super hesitant because it's, it's hard making that change.

[00:29:42] Right.

[00:29:43] But I think the thing that I want our listeners to know and understand what is so wonderful

[00:29:48] about building financial peace and having an emergency fund and building a plan with some

[00:29:56] of these things in mind, like I might need to take a sabbatical.

[00:29:59] What if I'm injured and I need to take time off?

[00:30:01] How can I afford that?

[00:30:03] Life happens.

[00:30:04] And we were in a position where you could step away from that crazy nine to five job

[00:30:12] six months sooner than we had even planned, you know?

[00:30:15] Well, it's because of the good planning that we had the option.

[00:30:18] Yeah.

[00:30:19] Right.

[00:30:19] And I think next episode we'll, we'll talk about the waterfall of, of the order of operations

[00:30:26] for where you, um, in theory could put your investments or your time and energy on.

[00:30:31] So that way, um, inevitably something happens to us all, right?

[00:30:34] We either, you know, get sick, we break something, we, we, we feel burnout.

[00:30:39] And so you want to be in a good position where you're ready to pull the plug or at least put

[00:30:43] it on hold that you can.

[00:30:45] And so, yes, we had prepared correctly.

[00:30:48] We did the planning that we needed to do.

[00:30:49] So that way, cause I think I mentioned this earlier, um, the writing was, was on the wall

[00:30:56] for me probably long before I even brought it up to you.

[00:30:58] Right.

[00:30:59] Like I was feeling symptoms of burnout long before I mentioned it because I didn't one know

[00:31:04] what it was.

[00:31:05] I thought it was just exhaustion.

[00:31:07] I could work through that typically.

[00:31:09] Uh, so when I, when I finally, um, brought it up and felt comfortable talking about it,

[00:31:15] cause I didn't, I didn't want to stress you out.

[00:31:17] Right.

[00:31:17] Like I didn't want to make you nervous cause I, I don't remember if, um, you were already

[00:31:22] working at the time.

[00:31:23] So that, so that wasn't a concern, but it was, it was a fact that I was making the big

[00:31:28] shovel paycheck and I, I didn't want to put that at risk or have you stress out about,

[00:31:33] you know, me thinking about leaving my job after all this effort that we went through

[00:31:37] to try and get there, uh, was too much to even mention.

[00:31:41] And so having our, our waterfall or our, you know, investments and our savings accounts

[00:31:47] in place really helped me have that conversation.

[00:31:50] But again, I think it's important for our listeners, um, you know, really, really want

[00:31:57] to stress, like be as honest as you can with your spouse.

[00:31:59] Right.

[00:31:59] Because if you can get them on board with how you're feeling, they can offer advice as

[00:32:05] well.

[00:32:06] Right.

[00:32:06] Like they can really help us, um, you know, be a, be a team and, and know what you're

[00:32:11] experiencing because you don't want to be feeling like you're alone.

[00:32:14] And I didn't feel that way.

[00:32:15] I had to have a little courage to talk to you about it.

[00:32:17] But other than that, it was, you've been amazing, um, on this journey.

[00:32:21] So yeah, you're welcome.

[00:32:23] All right.

[00:32:23] I've got last, last couple of points on this podcast.

[00:32:27] Um, I want to mention is, is some signs of panic attack because, uh, again, if you've

[00:32:32] maybe experienced these and you don't know, I had no idea what I was going through.

[00:32:35] So let's talk a little bit about, um, that just so that you're aware of it and you can

[00:32:38] seek your own, your own help.

[00:32:40] So, uh, physical symptoms of a panic attack include heart racing, difficulty breathing,

[00:32:46] trembling, sweating, chills, nausea, test or chest pain, stomach pain.

[00:32:51] Um, all of those things I experienced many times, uh, throughout my career.

[00:32:55] So doing okay.

[00:32:56] Doing okay.

[00:32:56] Yeah, for sure.

[00:32:57] Doing okay.

[00:32:58] Just checking.

[00:32:59] I'm putting myself back in the situation to talk about it.

[00:33:01] Don't do that.

[00:33:02] Okay.

[00:33:03] Um, and yeah, it is just really, it was really eyeopening.

[00:33:08] So I'm still thinking about it and I just don't ever want to get back in that position.

[00:33:12] And I, I really do feel like I'm, I'm not going to put myself in that position anymore.

[00:33:16] No, I won't let you.

[00:33:17] You won't let me.

[00:33:18] I will not allow myself anymore, which is really nice.

[00:33:21] And so, um, mental symptoms, if you're losing control, fear of dying, uh, that, that for

[00:33:28] some reason, um, can be an abyss that you go down into and can be, uh, a lot very depressing,

[00:33:34] um, behavior, anxious, irrational thinking, uh, heightened sense of vigilance or danger,

[00:33:42] right?

[00:33:42] These are all things that I think we've all experienced at some point or another, but if

[00:33:45] you're starting to have, um, you know, peaks of those thoughts or multiple of those symptoms

[00:33:50] all at the same time.

[00:33:52] Yeah.

[00:33:53] Yeah.

[00:33:53] It's definitely worth realizing that you're having those symptoms.

[00:33:57] Don't, don't shy away from it.

[00:33:58] Address them.

[00:34:00] You know, meditation is something that I've personally never been very good at, but now

[00:34:04] I'm understanding why people emphasize this and prioritize it because it's, it's understanding

[00:34:10] your, your body and what you're going through and talking to yourself and like, okay, what

[00:34:15] am I feeling today?

[00:34:16] All right.

[00:34:16] That's something that is coming up more and more frequently.

[00:34:19] I'm going to go get checked out.

[00:34:21] I'm going to go talk to somebody about this or go see somebody.

[00:34:23] And that's, you know, the first step I think that we don't want to ignore.

[00:34:28] One of the interesting things that I learned in therapy was to articulate to yourself how

[00:34:34] you're feeling.

[00:34:35] And I think a lot of people think about that phrase, like, oh, I feel happy right now, or

[00:34:40] I feel sad right now.

[00:34:41] I feel stressed.

[00:34:42] Okay.

[00:34:43] Yes.

[00:34:43] But what, what they really mean when they say that is how are you feeling in your body?

[00:34:48] Cause your body holds stress and anxiety and all of these things you are operating in

[00:34:56] this, you know, fleshy mechanism.

[00:35:00] And it's, it, it goes into these patterns and these systems.

[00:35:05] And so that's something that I, I started implementing.

[00:35:09] I don't know, not long after Bradley was born.

[00:35:13] Cause I started going to therapy and I started, okay.

[00:35:15] Like I have an up my stomach about this thing.

[00:35:17] Why?

[00:35:17] And trying to deconstruct that.

[00:35:19] Or I feel really nervous and anxious right now.

[00:35:21] And I don't know why you hear me say this sometimes where I'll be like, it's just a

[00:35:25] normal, totally fine day.

[00:35:26] And I'm like, I just feel really anxious right now.

[00:35:29] And I don't know why.

[00:35:30] And I say it out loud because it helps force me to think about why I'm feeling anxious in

[00:35:35] that moment.

[00:35:36] But it also gets me an outside perspective and you were your, cause sometimes you see my

[00:35:41] patterns and I don't even see that, you know, which is really interesting.

[00:35:44] And I think that that's what I do for you also is I will point out a certain pattern.

[00:35:48] Like back when Matt was in his super high stress job, Wednesdays was his bad day.

[00:35:53] It was midweek.

[00:35:54] He always had a lot of meetings the next day on Thursday.

[00:35:56] So I just knew that Wednesday was a super stressful day.

[00:35:59] And sure enough, Wednesdays would come around.

[00:36:02] He would just be in a bad mood or just be anxious.

[00:36:04] And sometimes he'd be like, I just don't know why I feel super anxious today.

[00:36:06] And I'd be like, well, it's Wednesday.

[00:36:09] Yeah.

[00:36:09] You were very good at recognizing the signs and you've also been very good at normalizing,

[00:36:15] you know, speaking about how you're feeling, right?

[00:36:17] Like you just mentioned, I'm feeling like I'm very anxious right now.

[00:36:20] And you would say that.

[00:36:21] So then I would recognize the signs even before you say that.

[00:36:24] So it does.

[00:36:25] And then now I also tell you, like, I'm, I'm feeling, I feel anxious on the show right

[00:36:29] now because talking about panic attacks, panic attacks, which is just still something that

[00:36:34] is just so fascinating to me.

[00:36:37] So anyway, I think we've, we've talked about this pretty well today.

[00:36:42] It's, you know, 35 minutes into the episode.

[00:36:45] Is there anything else that you want to mention before we sign off?

[00:36:48] No, just that.

[00:36:50] Um, I think you're doing great.

[00:36:52] Well, keep going, keep going.

[00:36:55] Um, yeah, you know, I am so grateful, um, to, to not only have you as a partner, but also

[00:37:02] to have this podcast as a way to show other people, this is something that is not something

[00:37:07] you can sweep under the rug.

[00:37:08] Yeah.

[00:37:09] Right.

[00:37:09] Like I thought I could, I really thought that I could overcome it.

[00:37:13] And the, the mental obstacle of it was how, how, how it directly feeded the way that I

[00:37:20] physically felt, uh, was something I'd never experienced before.

[00:37:24] So anyway, having the financial independence was a really great tool for us to be able to

[00:37:28] step away.

[00:37:29] Oh yeah.

[00:37:29] But it's important to build your financial independence journey with, with balance along

[00:37:34] the way.

[00:37:34] And I think, you know, getting to this point of coast by we have that balance now, you know,

[00:37:40] where we can work and do things that we enjoy.

[00:37:43] I love my job.

[00:37:44] You're working on things that you're really excited about and we don't have to super stress

[00:37:49] ourselves out, but we could have implemented some of those balances into our life sooner

[00:37:54] and earlier.

[00:37:55] And so when you're building your financial independence plan with your partner, keep in

[00:38:02] mind, it's important to take those PTO breaks.

[00:38:04] It's important to reset.

[00:38:05] It's important to pivot.

[00:38:07] If you're feeling super stressed and super anxious, it's time to make a change.

[00:38:11] And the end goal isn't just having all of the beans in the bowl at 65.

[00:38:18] You also have to build a journey now with balance.

[00:38:21] And so I think that's kind of what I want this episode to encapsulate.

[00:38:25] Yeah.

[00:38:26] Cause we didn't really in the beginning.

[00:38:28] And so I think we might have to retitle this episode because this has just been addressing

[00:38:33] panic attacks.

[00:38:34] We didn't really talk about the boring middle.

[00:38:36] Oh, true.

[00:38:37] So we'll, we'll, it's just, it's just so boring.

[00:38:41] We'll mention that in the next episode.

[00:38:42] Okay.

[00:38:43] Okay.

[00:38:43] All right.

[00:38:43] Thank you all for listening.

[00:38:45] It's been very, um, emotionally, uh, draining, draining this episode, but

[00:38:51] I think it's important.

[00:38:52] So, uh, we'll catch you next episode.

[00:38:54] Hopefully on something a little more, um, upbeat and exciting.

[00:38:56] Thanks.

[00:38:57] Next time.