Obstacles to FIRE: Eating those Peanut Butter & Jelly Sandwiches Ep. 3

[00:00:11] Welcome to CoastFI Couple, a podcast where love meets financial independence. I'm Matt.

[00:00:16] And I'm Jana. Join us every other week as we dive into the world of CoastFI and share smart money tips for couples.

[00:00:21] We're going to be talking all about how to strengthen your bond and your relationship and bringing closer to financial independence.

[00:00:26] One episode at a time.

[00:00:28] All right, we are back with CoastFI Couple. This is our third episode.

[00:00:34] Third episode.

[00:00:35] Not really sure how we'll publish the episodes, but this is our third time in the studio.

[00:00:39] It's good to be back in the studio.

[00:00:40] Yes. And today we are going to be talking about obstacles to FIRE.

[00:00:47] Yes.

[00:00:48] I definitely think that there is a mindset shift that needs to happen for people who are new to this concept.

[00:00:56] I definitely had some experiences when you first brought FIRE up that that sounded crazy.

[00:01:04] We could never do that. It's just so off the beaten path, right?

[00:01:08] Right. So what you normally hear from the FIRE community is, oh, you know, we're 29 and we're millionaires and we don't have to work anymore.

[00:01:18] Right.

[00:01:18] And in the back of your mind thinking, how the heck did they do that?

[00:01:24] That's unattainable.

[00:01:24] And then they start telling you, oh, well, we, you know, we, we cut everything or we, you know, we live in our car, in our car. Exactly.

[00:01:32] We still live with our parents or one of the obstacles actually that we haven't talked about a whole lot.

[00:01:37] It, when I, when we first started talking about FIRE and a big obstacle for me is I kept seeing all these examples of people who were firing early, you know, in their twenties or in their early thirties, like fully firing.

[00:01:50] And my question was like, do they have kids?

[00:01:53] Right.

[00:01:54] Do they have kids?

[00:01:55] So you, you judged slightly and we're not naming names.

[00:01:59] So you judged people slightly because we thought that their expenses did not match our expenses.

[00:02:04] No.

[00:02:05] And there's no way that we could have such a low expense rate and such a high savings rate in my mind for a long time with kids.

[00:02:13] But.

[00:02:14] Well, we'll get into that.

[00:02:14] Yeah.

[00:02:15] Yeah.

[00:02:15] Yeah.

[00:02:15] We figured out a way.

[00:02:17] I mean, we're not full FIRE, but.

[00:02:18] We're coasting.

[00:02:19] We're coasting.

[00:02:20] Hence the show.

[00:02:21] Right.

[00:02:21] All right.

[00:02:22] So first obstacle to FIRE.

[00:02:25] We hear this one a lot, right?

[00:02:27] I don't make enough to FIRE.

[00:02:29] Right.

[00:02:29] I don't have enough of a paycheck in order to make the savings rate work.

[00:02:34] Yes.

[00:02:35] Right.

[00:02:36] You know, I think about that a lot.

[00:02:39] We definitely had, you had a high shovel job.

[00:02:42] I call it a high shovel job for a long time where we will, we're able to have a much higher savings rate in a long time.

[00:02:48] I mean several years, but before that.

[00:02:51] We didn't make a whole lot.

[00:02:53] We didn't make three figures between the two of us for the majority of our life together.

[00:02:59] It was just about finding ways to remain frugal, keep our expenses low and try and maintain a healthy savings rate.

[00:03:08] It didn't matter what the income was.

[00:03:10] Well, I think that's the point.

[00:03:11] Right.

[00:03:11] So for those listening, you don't need a six figure job in order to get to FIRE.

[00:03:18] It's about the habits that you instill and the consistency and a little bit of education.

[00:03:26] Right.

[00:03:26] Right.

[00:03:26] So for us, I mean, when I first started out in the corporate world, I was making 45 a year.

[00:03:35] And I don't think you were working at the time.

[00:03:37] Were we living on one income back then?

[00:03:39] I'll have to remember.

[00:03:41] I think before we had our second child, I was working.

[00:03:46] Remember?

[00:03:46] Right.

[00:03:48] I was an admin lead at a staffing agency.

[00:03:50] And I wasn't making a lot.

[00:03:52] I think I was, I wasn't on salary.

[00:03:55] Yeah.

[00:03:56] And then I took time off to stay at home with the baby for a couple of years.

[00:04:02] And then I got back into the workforce.

[00:04:05] I think when our youngest was around two and a half or three.

[00:04:10] But yeah, during that time while I was working and even after I went home, I stayed at home for a couple of years with our youngest.

[00:04:18] And then I noticed we weren't making, we weren't making six figures even when I was working also.

[00:04:23] It was tight.

[00:04:25] And I remember that being kind of extra stressful because, you know, the jobs that we were working, we didn't particularly enjoy.

[00:04:32] We realized that they were stepping stones for us and we wanted to see what the next step was.

[00:04:37] But we had to kind of put in the time to learn.

[00:04:40] And that was going to be several years.

[00:04:42] Right.

[00:04:42] And so I remember kind of being not frustrated, but maybe demoralized a little bit that we, our savings rate was not what I wanted it to be because it just couldn't be.

[00:04:56] Right.

[00:04:57] So to the first objection of not having enough money and not making enough money to fire, you know, it is a math game.

[00:05:04] And so obviously it's a lot easier to fire if you have a big shovel or a big, you know, income job and low expenses.

[00:05:14] But it's also possible to keep the ball going down the hill as long as you maintain what your expenses are and live within your means.

[00:05:23] Right.

[00:05:23] And I think also having an awareness of what your plan and your goal is will help you start making some changes.

[00:05:31] Maybe you should get an additional certification or go back to school.

[00:05:35] Right.

[00:05:36] Yeah.

[00:05:36] We both went back to school because we realized we wanted to have a better income so we could have a higher savings rate.

[00:05:44] Now, this didn't necessarily affect our lifestyle.

[00:05:46] We weren't spending a whole lot more, maybe a little bit, but we've been pretty tight about lifestyle creep.

[00:05:51] Yeah.

[00:05:52] And we could talk about lifestyle creep in some later episodes.

[00:05:54] You've got a really interesting note here in our notes for today's episode about the top five careers reported among millionaires.

[00:06:04] Can you talk about that a little bit?

[00:06:06] Because I was actually really surprised to see some of these.

[00:06:08] Yeah.

[00:06:09] So this is kind of to feedback to that.

[00:06:11] You don't need to be making a lot of money in order to retire a millionaire or to hit the millionaire status.

[00:06:17] Right.

[00:06:18] And so, you know, you do have on the top five careers that will retire as millionaires, the usual suspects like, you know, a lawyer, an engineer.

[00:06:30] But number three is actually a teacher.

[00:06:33] And, you know, typically teachers don't make too much.

[00:06:37] And so.

[00:06:37] But they know how to budget.

[00:06:38] But they know how to budget.

[00:06:39] And they know how to live with what they've got.

[00:06:41] And so.

[00:06:42] That makes sense.

[00:06:42] That makes so much sense, actually, because they have to budget the resources in the classroom.

[00:06:46] And they're educators.

[00:06:48] So they're.

[00:06:49] I would imagine that they are educating themselves and they are applying those budgeting techniques to their lifestyle.

[00:06:55] And they're creative.

[00:06:56] Right.

[00:06:57] Like oftentimes they have to budget for their own classrooms, too.

[00:07:00] That's what.

[00:07:01] Yeah.

[00:07:01] That's getting it.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:02] Interesting.

[00:07:04] And then some other notes that I think that I wanted to point out.

[00:07:09] Consistency and education.

[00:07:12] Definitely a burden for me in the beginning.

[00:07:15] I wasn't consistent in purposefully learning about fire.

[00:07:19] But the more I learned, it's hard to unlearn it once you kind of see the writing on the wall and you've done the math for yourself.

[00:07:27] It's really hard to build an argument against at least trying, maybe not fire, but building a path for yourself to ensure that you have a comfortable retirement when you can no longer work.

[00:07:39] That's a good point.

[00:07:40] And it's actually not something that we put in the notes for today to talk about.

[00:07:43] But the education piece, it is relatively simple, but there's a lot of misinformation out there that can muddy the waters.

[00:07:54] Right.

[00:07:55] And it's confusing.

[00:07:57] There's acronyms.

[00:07:58] There's all of these really complex investment strategies.

[00:08:02] I'm still learning a lot.

[00:08:05] I'm learning something new every day.

[00:08:07] But something that's really great about being a part of the community is you can sort of learn in bits and pieces and try and apply what works and bounce ideas off of other people.

[00:08:17] I mean, I'm going to people in our fire group all the time and our choose fire group all the time to say, hey, I have this idea or this concept kept me up at night and I'm not sure if it applies.

[00:08:28] Or is it crazy to think that I can do X, Y, Z?

[00:08:30] So educate yourself.

[00:08:32] Educating yourself is really important.

[00:08:33] Listen to podcasts.

[00:08:34] Listen to this podcast.

[00:08:35] I was just going to say that.

[00:08:37] Listen to the other podcasts.

[00:08:37] I mean, honestly, like the podcasts were what kind of kept me going, right?

[00:08:43] Because it was listening to other people who have successfully done this plan and maybe who are in similar situations than we are.

[00:08:50] And what I found really interesting is I listened to the Mad Scientist podcast, which for those out there who haven't heard him yet, Brandon, the host, is very analytical.

[00:09:03] And it initially was a turnoff.

[00:09:05] I was like, wow, this is very dry and it's very technical.

[00:09:08] And I just didn't quite relate to it.

[00:09:11] But then I listened to it, you know, another six months or eight months down the line when it was something that was applicable.

[00:09:17] And I was like, wow, this is almost a step-by-step plan.

[00:09:21] And so taking those tools when I felt like I was ready to learn them.

[00:09:26] And applying it to your numbers, your situation, right?

[00:09:30] Exactly.

[00:09:30] It's about exposure to the concepts.

[00:09:32] And, you know, we will talk about, you know, Roth IRAs versus traditional or Roth versus traditional and all of those tips.

[00:09:43] Investment vehicles.

[00:09:44] But for the objection, for this episode, for the objection that we don't make enough, it's not so much what you make.

[00:09:52] It's about some education, right?

[00:09:54] Exposure to the principles, which we'll talk about, and just the consistency.

[00:09:59] So if you establish a savings rate and are able to tweak that over time, because our careers are going to grow as we grow.

[00:10:10] Ideally, you're looking for, you know, promotions and trying to climb that ladder or get additional clients if you're an entrepreneur or whatever.

[00:10:19] And as long as you can maintain your expenses and be comfortable in that, then that helps move the needle too.

[00:10:25] Right.

[00:10:25] Because it's not necessarily that your expenses then go up if you make more.

[00:10:28] It's that your savings rate can go up when you make more.

[00:10:32] And building a plan to maybe get a higher paying job or get some certifications that could help you get that promotion.

[00:10:40] That's a good plan.

[00:10:41] Or a side hustle.

[00:10:42] Or a side hustle.

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:43] And you don't need to do it forever, right?

[00:10:44] It's just, it's about getting kind of that ball going initially.

[00:10:48] Right.

[00:10:48] You have, you have a note in here.

[00:10:50] Not having a plan is a plan and it's a bad plan, right?

[00:10:55] And this is the part that was so difficult is when you would talk to other people at work, typically money was so taboo.

[00:11:04] Yes.

[00:11:05] And nobody really knew the right way to do it.

[00:11:09] And it was, it was kind of the default, I think, for most people to say, well, I make, I make this.

[00:11:15] So therefore I can spend this.

[00:11:17] And they might, you know, contribute hopefully to.

[00:11:20] The match.

[00:11:21] The match.

[00:11:35] It grows and rolls down the hill for that compound interest to start really building.

[00:11:41] And that's what you want.

[00:11:42] Start early.

[00:11:42] And it doesn't have to be a crazy amount early.

[00:11:44] Soon you start, the bigger the ball is when it starts rolling.

[00:11:47] Which is why this podcast is, is kind of being made too, for not only for us to learn, but also to teach our kids about some of the lessons that we've learned.

[00:11:56] Because for those that can start when they're in their twenties or younger, the math makes, makes so much more sense and it's easier.

[00:12:04] So you have to put less of a savings rate in to be able to get the result that you want.

[00:12:08] Yeah.

[00:12:08] It's way fun playing with the compound interest calculators.

[00:12:11] The idea of playing with the compound interest calculators when we talk about helping the kids.

[00:12:17] Yes.

[00:12:17] With some of these numbers.

[00:12:18] Yes.

[00:12:18] Because they can start and invest very little early on and reach some really astronomical, amazing retirement numbers.

[00:12:27] And that's that the gift of knowledge is, is really, I think going to impact them.

[00:12:32] And I'm excited about that.

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:33] Me too.

[00:12:34] 50 years of growth is a very fun calculation to play with.

[00:12:37] Yeah.

[00:12:38] Yeah.

[00:12:38] The more that Jan and I simplify and automate our finances, the happier we became.

[00:12:44] And this is the single greatest finance budgeting tool that's come out in recent times.

[00:12:50] It's called Cube Money and it's changing the way couples implement financial health.

[00:12:56] We're investors in this company.

[00:12:58] We have exclusively been using Cube Money to do our own personal budgets since 2020.

[00:13:04] And it's so simple that even our kids are now using it.

[00:13:08] Cube has developed and patented a technology they call Default Zero.

[00:13:13] And it requires a category to be opened from your personal budget before you can spend with the card.

[00:13:20] And then once you spend, it deducts it all in real time.

[00:13:23] This single feature has made Cube the safest card in the world to use.

[00:13:30] If you drop it, it always has a zero balance on it unless you open the budgeting app.

[00:13:35] It's been extremely handy for us and it saved us actually several instances of fraud.

[00:13:40] And we're never going to go back.

[00:13:43] Cube is perfect for families too because they've got shared spending categories that allow you to spend in real time from them.

[00:13:50] And everyone else in the family can see the updated balance.

[00:13:53] It's essentially making it 100% foolproof to always stick to our budget.

[00:13:58] And that has actually been the case.

[00:14:00] We have not overspent from our budget since we started Cube.

[00:14:04] And it's amazing.

[00:14:05] This is the tool that helped us get a handle on our family spending and made our journey to Coastify so much easier.

[00:14:13] So if you're ready to take your budget to the next level where you truly can automate it, you truly set it and forget it, then you're in luck.

[00:14:22] Because Cube Money is offering an exclusive deal just for our listeners.

[00:14:25] Go to cubemoney.com, that's Q-U-B-E-Money.com, and at checkout, use the code COAST.

[00:14:32] You can try the premium or the family membership for free.

[00:14:37] And again, we highly recommend it.

[00:14:39] It's a personal endorsement.

[00:14:41] We know that if you use the program, it'll work for you.

[00:14:44] Enjoy.

[00:14:45] So just to wrap that last segment up, right?

[00:14:48] We don't need to make six figures or more or have a huge paying job in order to achieve FIRE.

[00:14:53] Just focus on your savings rate.

[00:14:55] And ideally, you want to put in at least more than 15%.

[00:14:58] You know, the FIRE community will try and shoot for 70%.

[00:15:02] We think that's a little aggressive depending on the job, right?

[00:15:05] So, you know, find what's comfortable for you.

[00:15:07] But obviously, the more you can contribute, the faster you'll get to the actual FIRE part of the journey.

[00:15:13] Right?

[00:15:13] Right.

[00:15:15] All right.

[00:15:15] Another objection.

[00:15:17] And I think this was probably your hot take.

[00:15:21] My partner would never do this.

[00:15:23] Is that how you felt when you first brought FIRE up?

[00:15:29] No.

[00:15:30] I don't think that it was that you would never do this.

[00:15:33] Okay.

[00:15:34] You know, luckily, I feel like I can talk to you about anything.

[00:15:37] Yeah.

[00:15:38] And so I think what I did was probably just wore you down a little bit about, hey, you know, my job is getting really stressful.

[00:15:44] And there's another way to maybe to think about this.

[00:15:47] And it just took some time.

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:49] But, you know, what was the mental block that you initially had when I talked to you about FIRE?

[00:15:58] I have a couple takes on this.

[00:16:01] So, one, I don't know why, and this might be wrong, but I thought it was your brother's idea.

[00:16:06] Not your brother's idea, but something that your brother had brought up.

[00:16:09] And he has some really interesting interests, you know?

[00:16:17] Not bad.

[00:16:18] But I just was like, okay, we can talk about that.

[00:16:24] But I think a big part of the reason why I was just sort of like, that doesn't fit what we got going on was because I had just had a baby.

[00:16:32] Yeah.

[00:16:32] You know, and the idea of bringing our expenses down even further and trying to save more felt really unattainable.

[00:16:41] And I was honestly just kind of in survival mode.

[00:16:44] I was dealing with some postpartum depression.

[00:16:47] I was just trying to get through the baby phase with our youngest.

[00:16:53] And not that I wasn't trying to help budget or trying to be plugged in in that way.

[00:16:58] I think I was just in survival mode and not in a place where I could learn something that was seemingly not mainstream and off the cuff at the time.

[00:17:09] I think that you had kind of dived in on the Reddit threads a little bit, and I was like, okay, you know?

[00:17:14] So, it just seemed like a crazy idea.

[00:17:18] I felt like we were already doing really well.

[00:17:21] We were living well within our means.

[00:17:23] We were saving.

[00:17:24] We were living a modest lifestyle.

[00:17:27] So, it just didn't seem, I don't want to say that it didn't seem necessary or important.

[00:17:34] It just wasn't something that was taking up my brain space.

[00:17:38] So, that was an obstacle for me.

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:43] Yeah.

[00:17:43] I suppose timing is probably important.

[00:17:47] Yeah.

[00:17:48] So, you know, that was a very stressful time when we had the newborn and we were both in school or I was in school at that time.

[00:17:55] Yes.

[00:17:56] And so, yeah, that makes sense, right?

[00:18:00] Adding additional pressure just didn't seem like the right thing to make at the time.

[00:18:07] Not that I, I don't know if I decided I was never going to do it.

[00:18:10] I just think at the time it didn't make sense for us to try to, you know, tighten things up even more.

[00:18:15] And also, not to, you know, poke you with a needle a little bit, but you tended to come at it from sort of a scarcity mindset.

[00:18:28] We got to do this thing.

[00:18:29] We got to save as much money as possible.

[00:18:31] We got to eat those peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

[00:18:32] You know, spent $10 more at the grocery store than we should.

[00:18:35] Like, and I just was not interested in participating in a lifestyle from a scarcity mindset.

[00:18:43] From a building mindset, from a long-term goalpost mindset.

[00:18:47] Sure.

[00:18:47] But, and we figured this out later.

[00:18:50] I need regular goalposts to celebrate and be excited.

[00:18:54] Like, oh, we hit this number.

[00:18:56] We did the thing.

[00:18:57] We saved this much that we said that we were going to save before the end of the year.

[00:19:01] We were able to do, you know, go on this trip that we'd save for.

[00:19:05] And we also were able to contribute, you know, max out a Roth or whatever, you know.

[00:19:10] And so I needed those goalposts, but you have always been very head down, not look at it.

[00:19:15] Let's just get through it.

[00:19:16] Scarcity mindset all the way until the end.

[00:19:18] And so we've kind of had to mesh those two concepts together so that we can find a rhythm that works for both of us.

[00:19:27] And we talked about this, I think in the last episode, you know, that, that mindset where it wasn't scarcity,

[00:19:34] where it wasn't like go as hard as you can to retire as fast as you can, which was where I was.

[00:19:39] I agree with that.

[00:19:41] Help me realize the joys of slowing down, right?

[00:19:46] Like I always say that you helped me stop and smell the roses because I was missing things.

[00:19:51] I was missing things with you.

[00:19:52] I was missing things with the kids.

[00:19:54] You know, my, my frugality at the time was so aggressive that I wouldn't willingly, you know,

[00:20:02] buy concert tickets to go see our favorite band if they were in town.

[00:20:06] I have a story.

[00:20:07] Oh, bring it on.

[00:20:08] Okay.

[00:20:08] So Matt is so incredibly frugal.

[00:20:13] We just went through our closet over the weekend.

[00:20:17] Okay.

[00:20:19] And he.

[00:20:20] It's gotten better.

[00:20:21] Just so.

[00:20:23] He did.

[00:20:25] Finally, I convinced him to get rid of some of his old clothes and stuff that he, he just was afraid to get rid of anything because he might need it later and he just won't have to buy it a second time.

[00:20:35] And he still had his very first suit ever.

[00:20:39] Did you say it was from high school?

[00:20:41] It's still from prom.

[00:20:42] From prom?

[00:20:43] Was it from prom?

[00:20:43] No, it wasn't from prom.

[00:20:45] It wasn't from prom.

[00:20:46] Don't lie to me.

[00:20:46] It might've been a homecoming.

[00:20:47] I don't know.

[00:20:49] Definitely not prom.

[00:20:50] And, you know, yeah, I hate shopping with a fiery passion.

[00:20:54] So.

[00:20:54] But less about shopping and more about wanting to hold on to something that costs a lot of money at the time and not wanting to be willy nilly and throw it away just to need another replacement.

[00:21:07] But, um.

[00:21:07] To be fair, I have worn that jacket, you know, over the course of our relationship.

[00:21:12] The one?

[00:21:13] The one.

[00:21:14] The one that you just, the one that was the oldest one?

[00:21:15] I'm pretty sure I wore that to like a wedding with a friend or something.

[00:21:17] You had a lot of suits that you thinned out of the closet.

[00:21:20] Yeah.

[00:21:20] Luckily, I don't have to wear them as much anymore, thankfully.

[00:21:23] So.

[00:21:23] Anyway, so that principle of Matt's frugality has sort of permeated a lot of the different areas of our spend and our savings.

[00:21:32] And it's definitely worn me down in good and frustrating ways.

[00:21:36] But.

[00:21:37] Well, you felt me too.

[00:21:41] Our closet is now looking.

[00:21:42] Yes, it looks great.

[00:21:44] So.

[00:21:45] Space in there.

[00:21:45] It's good.

[00:21:46] So to get back on topic for a second.

[00:21:48] Right.

[00:21:48] So the mental block that you encountered initially was timing the fact that we came at it with a scarcity mindset.

[00:21:57] And I was just in survival mode.

[00:21:58] Yeah.

[00:21:59] Yeah.

[00:21:59] Yeah.

[00:21:59] That was a tough time.

[00:22:00] So what was what was the the catalyst maybe to, you know, start thinking about this in a positive way?

[00:22:10] And taking it more seriously.

[00:22:11] Honestly, I think once we made some changes with our jobs and I felt like I was able to contribute more financially.

[00:22:23] It's true.

[00:22:23] It was.

[00:22:24] I want income.

[00:22:24] Right.

[00:22:25] It was more fun to count the beans because I was helping put beans in the bowl in the pot.

[00:22:32] Right.

[00:22:33] And so that became a little bit more fun.

[00:22:35] And I think I had a sense of relief that we were finally able to hit some of our savings goals on a more consistent basis.

[00:22:44] And and we were no longer really in survival mode.

[00:22:47] Our youngest wasn't a toddler tearing through the house anymore.

[00:22:51] You know, we had sort of reached a level of peace in multiple areas in our lives.

[00:22:57] And I think it shifted from scarcity mindset to we get to build together and that's exciting.

[00:23:08] We get to plan.

[00:23:09] I get to make a plan purposefully and conscientiously and and plug goals and ideas into that plan at will.

[00:23:18] And I can pivot if I want to.

[00:23:20] We can change our minds if we want to.

[00:23:22] Right.

[00:23:23] Oh, and therapy.

[00:23:25] I definitely think therapy really helped.

[00:23:30] So try that.

[00:23:31] Let's clarify the point on therapy.

[00:23:33] Is it just because of your previous relationship with money that you had?

[00:23:37] Yeah, I definitely I didn't have I didn't grow up with a lot of positive influences around money.

[00:23:44] I did have a grandfather that helped me learn how to save and but he died when I was young.

[00:23:48] And so I think that if I had had that longer in my life, I probably would have had a different relationship with money.

[00:23:52] Um, not to say that my family members aren't good with money.

[00:23:56] It's just wasn't we weren't talking about strategies and and how to apply them across the board.

[00:24:03] So I just didn't have a lot of tools.

[00:24:05] I was kind of on my own to figure it out, you know.

[00:24:06] And so saving and investing and building a long term financial plan.

[00:24:13] These weren't skills that I was given as a young adult.

[00:24:18] And so I didn't really come fully online until after.

[00:24:22] And I don't I don't think that therapy necessarily helped me deconstruct my relationship with money more so it helped me deconstruct some of my other habits just in life or, you know, bringing new healthier tools to the table.

[00:24:39] And that just sort of affected how I thought about money and how I communicated with you about it also positively.

[00:24:47] Yeah, you you told me once that you liked the you liked the sensation of knowing the language.

[00:24:56] Yes, it took a while to build that.

[00:24:58] Yes.

[00:24:58] And now when we go to, you know, local fire meetups or, you know, finance clubs that are around town, you know, we all speak the same language.

[00:25:10] And so it almost enters into this community aspect.

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:14] And so I think although it might have been hard initially for maybe people here who are trying to introduce their spouses.

[00:25:23] And get their spouses on board.

[00:25:25] Or their partners on board with this.

[00:25:27] It's tricky.

[00:25:28] It's apparently very delicate, right?

[00:25:29] You have to not be too aggressive.

[00:25:32] I think it's just slow exposure to the concept.

[00:25:34] Right.

[00:25:35] And treat it like we're building something together.

[00:25:38] Yeah.

[00:25:38] Right.

[00:25:38] And it is a language that you have to learn.

[00:25:41] There's acronyms and there's strategies.

[00:25:43] And that can be really overwhelming.

[00:25:44] I've probably said that six times already on the podcast.

[00:25:46] But it doesn't have to be.

[00:25:47] It doesn't have to be taken in small spurts.

[00:25:50] You know, try and learn one new thing every few days or every week or so.

[00:25:55] Yeah.

[00:25:55] And I'm so glad that I did because now I feel like I have control and we have control over what our plan is.

[00:26:04] And it feels peaceful.

[00:26:06] It feels really.

[00:26:07] I feel secure in our plan.

[00:26:09] And I feel confident.

[00:26:10] And I feel like we've built a community as well if we're worried about being in an echo box about it.

[00:26:17] Right.

[00:26:17] We can.

[00:26:17] True.

[00:26:18] We can always ask other people what they've done in this situation.

[00:26:20] So although going to some of those five groups in the beginning was really kind of intimidating for me because I felt like I didn't know what they were talking about.

[00:26:30] I didn't.

[00:26:30] They would spit acronyms off and reference these financial independent strategies that I had no idea what they were talking about.

[00:26:38] And so that was kind of intimidating for me.

[00:26:40] I like to be good at what I do with my time.

[00:26:42] And so it just it took time to get there.

[00:26:45] I remember the last point on this topic, but I remember we took some road trips with the kids and there was this point where I think we were listening to.

[00:26:55] It might have been Friends on Fire podcast or one of the podcasts that mentioned this.

[00:27:02] And it was it was good.

[00:27:03] It was entertaining, you know, similar to what we're trying to build here where it's approachable.

[00:27:06] And I remember there was a time because, you know, when I'm driving, I sometimes get to call like the driving card where I say, hey, I don't do it every time.

[00:27:14] I don't do it every time.

[00:27:14] But like I want to listen to an episode of this while we're driving on this seven hour road trip.

[00:27:17] Right.

[00:27:18] And there was a time where you're like into the show.

[00:27:20] So and afterwards, I remember being like, yeah, like that's one more one more, you know, potential catch.

[00:27:26] Got her.

[00:27:28] Because you're asking questions and I would tell you kind of like how, you know, we applied in the past.

[00:27:34] And then, you know, again, your perspective really helped me improve our plan and and make it so that was something that you wanted to be part of because my approach was just not.

[00:27:45] You were a bit too rigid.

[00:27:47] I think that I needed to break down your rigidity a little bit.

[00:27:49] And we needed to kind of meet in the middle, you know, which was important.

[00:27:52] It wasn't that you convinced me to come to the dark side of financial independence.

[00:27:56] Right.

[00:27:57] It was more so, you know, I convinced you to loosen up a little bit and prioritize things so that way we could build a budget that was applicable for both of our goals.

[00:28:06] Yes.

[00:28:07] Together and independently.

[00:28:08] And I also, you know, kind of came to the middle on understanding what the point of it all was and the long term goals and all those things.

[00:28:16] So it was just sort of a and it took time.

[00:28:19] But yeah.

[00:28:20] That's the last point is it's an ongoing discussion.

[00:28:22] Right.

[00:28:22] Yes.

[00:28:24] It's not a one time discussion or disagreement.

[00:28:28] It's it's an ongoing topic.

[00:28:31] And I think that that is healthy.

[00:28:34] And just keeping in mind that every time you talk about it, it is productive, even if it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere.

[00:28:41] Because it it was I just wasn't sure yet.

[00:28:45] Yeah.

[00:28:46] You want to get to a point where talking about your dreams is exciting, is exciting spouse.

[00:28:52] And it becomes the point.

[00:28:53] Yes.

[00:28:54] Because the money is not the point.

[00:28:56] And that was hard for me to initially admit.

[00:28:59] Right.

[00:28:59] Like, oh, I wanted to be a millionaire.

[00:29:01] You know, I wanted I wanted the big house.

[00:29:03] Yeah.

[00:29:04] And and then you helped me realize that it wasn't about that at all.

[00:29:08] No.

[00:29:09] It was about the love and family.

[00:29:11] It's about the path on the way there, the path on the way there.

[00:29:14] And enjoy that.

[00:29:15] And I read there's actually a podcast with Bill Perkins who wrote the book Die With Zero.

[00:29:24] And it's a different concept than the fire concept.

[00:29:29] It essentially says that, you know, you make all this money and then you just leave nothing.

[00:29:33] You don't leave any legacy.

[00:29:34] You just you literally die with zero.

[00:29:35] So it's not something that I subscribe to.

[00:29:37] But he had a really great concept that talked about the life arch.

[00:29:42] And I think you and I mentioned this before.

[00:29:45] Yes.

[00:29:45] And so the life arch was really, really helpful because it says, you know, if you want to in your perfect life, want to be a windsurfer, you probably won't do that or start that journey when you're 80.

[00:29:59] Right.

[00:29:59] Right.

[00:30:00] Right.

[00:30:00] So if you're looking to try and be good at that or have that be a part of your life, you want to try and put it to where you physically can do it.

[00:30:06] And so it's like, OK, well, I'm going to take lessons.

[00:30:08] I'm going to buy the cure.

[00:30:10] I'm going to, you know, go on on a trip just to do it.

[00:30:14] And it's going to be when I'm in my 30s or 40s.

[00:30:16] And so then you you intentionally put money to that.

[00:30:19] Invest your time and your energy and your money and your resources into fulfilling that life dream when it's appropriate in the trajectory of your life.

[00:30:27] Exactly.

[00:30:28] Yeah.

[00:30:28] Or if the goal is, you know, I really want to be present with my kids.

[00:30:32] I really want to take them on family vacation trips to, you know, the Grand Canyon or something.

[00:30:38] Right.

[00:30:39] You know, they'll probably only want to go with you for, you know, a certain segment of our lives.

[00:30:45] You've got about a decade of your life with your kids where that is actually going to be fun for everyone.

[00:30:48] Where they're willing to sit in the car with you for, you know, 12 hours or more to do that.

[00:30:52] Yeah, exactly.

[00:30:53] OK.

[00:30:54] What's another objection?

[00:30:58] Let's see.

[00:31:01] I got one.

[00:31:02] OK.

[00:31:04] It's hard.

[00:31:05] Yeah.

[00:31:09] Yeah.

[00:31:10] It is hard in a way, but it's rewarding hard.

[00:31:15] It's hard at first.

[00:31:17] It's challenging, but it's rewarding.

[00:31:19] Yeah.

[00:31:21] So the beauty of this is, again, it is all a math problem.

[00:31:25] Yes.

[00:31:25] And so it's as hard as you want it to be.

[00:31:27] It's one of those things where you choose your heart.

[00:31:30] There you go.

[00:31:30] Right.

[00:31:30] That's a good way to put it.

[00:31:31] There is a do you remember that that meme that I showed you where it's two different rock climbers and one rock climber is going up sort of a steep mountain.

[00:31:42] That's kind of steep, but the back end is not that bad.

[00:31:47] And then the other climber has a really easy, no beginning, beginning, but then they got to go straight up the mountain later.

[00:31:54] Yes.

[00:31:55] It reminded me so much of financial independence and saving.

[00:32:00] Because no matter how many times I tried to break down this idea that we needed to save aggressively for our long-term retirement goals.

[00:32:11] You would say this.

[00:32:12] Then you would say this all the time.

[00:32:13] And you're so right.

[00:32:14] It's just a math game.

[00:32:15] And that used to infuriate me, but you're right.

[00:32:21] You're right.

[00:32:21] It is just a math game.

[00:32:22] Well, we had a conversation with our oldest recently and it's about taking the quote, the pain or the difficulty.

[00:32:33] And spreading it out.

[00:32:34] Spreading it out over time.

[00:32:35] Yeah.

[00:32:35] So that way you're not having at the very end of the road, you know, to work overtime and get nine jobs and like climb that mountain.

[00:32:43] No, it's a, you want it to be an enjoyable hike.

[00:32:47] Right.

[00:32:47] Right.

[00:32:48] And so that goes back to our first point of start as early as you can save as much, you know, that you're willing or able to, and it will be easier for you later on.

[00:32:57] Right.

[00:32:58] It can be challenging for a longer period of time and then easier and enjoyable later, or it can be easy and enjoyable now and really, really hard later.

[00:33:11] So, and luckily I think you're like me where we would much rather if we have the ability plan for an easier life in the future.

[00:33:19] Yes.

[00:33:19] And, you know, we're young enough to be able to put the stepping stones in place.

[00:33:23] And we might have a couple of years where we fall off the bandwagon and like we did with, you know, when we had our first or we had a second born way, we just, we couldn't save as much as we needed to.

[00:33:32] And so that took a couple of years, but that's okay.

[00:33:34] You know, it's about the plan.

[00:33:35] There's only, there was only two or three years where he really needed me at home.

[00:33:41] Right.

[00:33:42] Oh yeah.

[00:33:42] As a baby.

[00:33:43] And you were totally right.

[00:33:44] And so it was, it was a good call.

[00:33:46] Yeah.

[00:33:46] Yeah.

[00:33:48] Yeah.

[00:33:48] So I, I feel good about this episode.

[00:33:52] Yeah.

[00:33:53] Me too.

[00:33:53] Okay.

[00:33:54] I think those are the main objections that we get.

[00:33:56] We'll talk about a couple more later on.

[00:33:57] I'm sure more will come up, but we'll, we'll discuss them as they, as we think of them.

[00:34:02] But.

[00:34:03] Okay.

[00:34:04] Okay.

[00:34:05] Well, signing off guys.

[00:34:07] Thanks so much for joining.

[00:34:08] Yeah.

[00:34:08] See you next time.